#16 INTERVIEW OF BLACK STUDENTS ENROLLED AT WASHINGTON AND LEE 
I. Have you decided upon a college major? Yes. 
Ifyes, what? Politics 
2. 
(Ifthe answer to question 6 is no, skip #7.) What is your grade point average (GP A) in your major field?Should be about a 3.0 even. 

3. 
What type ofdegree are you working toward at Washington and Lee? 


BA X 
BS [ science or commerce] 

4. 
What is the occupation or profession you want to enter upon finishing your education? I want to go into law. I want to be an attorney. 

5. 
Do you plan on working toward an advanced degree at some time after finishing your undergraduate program? Yes. Law School. 

6. 
While growing up, did you attend or were you personally active in church? Yes I No Yes. 


Ifyes, please give the denomination, and the type of church activities in which you participated. Seventh Day Adventist, and as far as participation, just going with my mother on Sundays --well, Saturdays. 
How would you characterize your church involvement in Lexington? Non-existent. I just don't go to church. 
7. How would you compare your level ofparticipation in extra-curricular activities in high school and at Washington and Lee? I think I participate fairly well at Washington and Lee considering how academics are so rigorous, and there's just no time. Whereas in high school you had a little more time for other things and it wasn't as strenuous. But I think, all things considered, I think I participate well. Here, I play sports and I'm in a club or 2, but in high school, I played sports all year round and I was in every club --I mean, it was just more --I just did more. My priorities have switched here. 
8. How did you learn about Washington and Lee University? 
I didn't. I was just put here. How did that happen? I got a scholarship through Project Excellence and they gave me a list of schools that I could choose and W &L was one of them. I never knew the school existed and I just picked one. Just like a toss ofthe coin? Yeah, pretty much. I had to make my choice up over night. It was tough. Okay, so it was through your scholarship. Yes. 
9. To what extent were you assisted during the admissions process by an alumnus of Washington and Lee? Not at all. 
10.  Did you visit the campus before you matriculated as a student?  Yes.  I visited on my  
own.  
Ifyes, under what circumstances?  I came down --this was after I was accepted. I mean,  

I guess if you want to call "accepted." I came down with my mom and dad just to visit because I wanted to see what I was getting myself into. But I didn't get like a normal tour like most people. I just came to see the campus. I physically saw the campus. So you didn't meet people. No, not really. I didn't do any of that. I knew I was coming here and that wasn't going to affect anything. 
Please describe your reactions to this campus visit. Well, I thought it was real pretty --I thought it was gorgeous. And I talked to a couple of students in passing and I asked about how minorities --were there any minorities in this school, and people were honest. They were like, No, well there are a couple, but its just a handful and --I mean you could pick them out basically. 
Were these minorities that you were asking? I asked a couple of white students and they were honest with me. There was only one black person that I got a chance to even see that day and he told me. He told me not to come here. He was like, "don't come here, don't be bought, don't let yourself be bought." He was like, "it's not worth it." Were you already committed? Had you already --Well, I could have always backed out, but basically, I let myself be bought. I mean, money talks and W &L was saying a whole lot. 
So the other ones that you could have chosen from this scholarship wouldn't have offered you as much? Yeah, they would have, but I was looking also at, like, academic standards and proximity to home and that kind of thing. So, I didn't want to go to school in Indiana or New York. I mean, I didn't mind New York, but I wanted a small school. This school offered a lot that I wanted, surprisingly enough, after I researched the stuff, except that it is so homogeneous and so conservative and traditional and stuff. But aside from that, everything else about the school I like. I like that it's small and that kind of stuff. What were some ofthe other school that were on the list? Rochester Institute of Technology, DePaul University, I think these were the only three that I remember, but there were some others that had been thrown out. I think I had just narrowed it down to those three. I was going to Lafayette at first, that's where I was going, where I thought I was going. Before you got the scholarship? Yeah, well, actually I was going to Haverford before I got this scholarship, but I wasn't going to pay and --I mean it was free here. You see how it all comes back to the money. 
10a. Was W&L your ... 
It was less than third choice, I didn't know. I didn't even apply here. I got my letter of acceptance and then I applied, just for formality reasons. I got a letter of acceptance saying, "Congratulations, da-da-da-da and then like a week later I guess I got the forms. I mean, I didn't even fill them out completely, it was just like they needed me on record. So, W&L must have some sort ofspecial relationship with this particular scholarship? Yeah, I would assume so. I would think that they're trying to, I guess, bring minorities here. I guess the cream of the crop is what they think it's supposed to be, I don't know. I guess if they have to bring minorities here they might as well be the smartest ones they can find, I don't know, I'm assuming. 
1Ob. About how many other colleges did you apply to? ... Four 
And they were all not on that list? No they were not on that list. 
1Oc. How many other colleges accepted you? Three. 
11. What made you decide to attend Washington and Lee? Good academic reputation. I mean, I've set my priorities or I wouldn't be here to begin with. Financial reasons was another. I spoke to friends in high school, not peers, like teachers that I considered friends, and they told me that --I mean, they tried to tell me what I'd be in store for, and they were honest with me too -­but they told me that if I was just looking for an education, you know which is what I was really looking for --that's not the only thing about college, but it's big for me. I'll only be the second one in my family to graduate. So, when they told you what you'd be in for, what were they saying? Well, a lot of people said that it would be a very racist campus, that I probably wouldn't be accepted, that I probably wouldn't have any fun. Your teacher friends were saying that? Some, but they were being honest with me. They just wanted me to know and they were, like, you know it's going to be very conservative and it might be a lot of pressure that you might not be used to. What kind ofpressure did they mean? Just not being accepted by the students, being stereotyped or just basically a lot of students don't even believe that I belong here. I had a conversation with one individual who thought I didn't deserve to be here. So, I guess they just wanted me to be alert and to be aware. H ow do you suppose those people formed that opinion? Well, just like word gets around that it's a good school, well, word gets around that it has its negative aspects too. So, they were talking about W &L specifically, rather than the W &L type ofschool? I think it was more W &L --I think it was the students that go to W &L. I live in Mary land, so it's not like it's that far that word wouldn't get around to a certain degree. 
Recruited by athletic departmentX, I like that it's a Division Three for sports, just so I could do my work and still have fun. 
Were there other factors you considered in making the decision? About not to come here? It's up to you how 'd you'd answer that. Well, I considered whether or not I wanted to --about not coming here. I didn't know if I was willing to make such a sacrifice for four years of my life. I mean, it's supposed to be the best four years of your life and they don't feel that way. I've talked to other friends at other schools, and I'm wondering if it's worth it --if I've sacrificed too much for probably what's going to turn out to be the same as everyone else who went to another school and had a different experience. Work out to be the same in what way? In terms ofwhat you get out ofit? Yeah, like when I get out of here, I'm asuming it's going to pay off and I will get into a good law school, hopefully, or be successful in the corporate world, or whatever, and I gave up a lot to do that and I don't even know if that's going to happen. I know I have friends who went to state schools or predominantly black schools, and they're having a great time, and I'm wondering if we're going to be in the same lane when we get out of here and whether it's even worth it for me to come here. 
And what sacrifices do you mean specifically? The social life, I mean, there's more to college than just education and academics. I know that. That's number 1 for me, but it would be nice to meet different people. I'm not saying they have to be all black, that's not what I'm saying at all. I do like diversity. I mean, in the real world --this is fantasy land, to me, and it's not my fantasy, and it's just --I think in college life you're supposed to meet different people so that when you get out in the real world, you know how to deal with others. It's not always going to be a group of white, conservative, southern people that you're going to be dealing with, and the students here are going to be in for a shock when they get out of here. Well, mom and dad will probably hire them, but aside from that -­
12. Once you decided to enroll at W&L, what was the reaction offriends and relatives? Well, to be honest with you my relatives don't even know. I mean, they were just happy I was going to college. Like I said, I'm going to be the second one in my family to do so. And my friends, they just kind of --well, they feel like it was kind of a sell out. I don't know if you're familiar with the term, but I don't know --I guess an Uncle Tom kind of thing. But then they understood that I was doing it for the money and then they were wondering if it was even worth it, like I said. I got some flack from my friends. I guess, they saw themselves looking out for my best interest, but -­Has that worked out with your friends? Yeah, my friends would never come visit me here or anything like that just because they don't think they would fit into this environment, which I understand because I have trouble fitting into this environment, and I'm a whole lot more open­minded than my friends. I have some pretty closed minded friends, but that's just people. They're alright with me now. They were just like, "Are you sure you want to do this. You could go somewhere else and just pay a little bit and be a whole lot better off." So, they 're not holding up that Uncle Tom image to you anymore? No, not really. It was just like, you know, "You're going to be selling out to the white people once again." It was bad. 
This next question, you've already answered some, but I want to see ifthere's anything else you want to say about whether there were negative images about W&L that made you think seriously about not coming? No, just the racial aspect. I wasn't sure what the students were going to be like. I don't know, whether they were going to be afraid --because some people are afraid of black people. I guess there's some justification for that, but everyone isn't like that and the black students that go to W &L especially aren't going to be like that or they wouldn't be here. I was really wondering if that was how those people were going to be. Or just not talk to me --I mean, they don't have to go out of their way to speak to me, there are plenty of other people they could make friends with. 
13. Once you were enrolled, did you find the University to be as you had expected? Well, to a certain degree, yes. I expected it to be hard academically and it has proven way beyond that, but on the social scene and that kind of thing, yes, it's come out pretty much --It's not as bad as I thought it was going to be, but --like I'm seriously offended by the Confederate flag which means one thing to some people and something else to another. Not that they should take them down, because they have every right to have them, but still I have a right to say the way I feel and I am offended by the Confederate flag. To me the Confederate flag --we got into this in one of my classes --this one particular girl was saying, "I don't understand what the big deal is; the Confederate flag stands for southern pride." Well, see that's not what it stands for for me; it's slavery and if you think about it, that's what southern pride is. I mean, if you traced it back, it's a chain reaction. Southern pride, it's about the south, it goes back to the roots of slavery, no matter how you want to hide it and the students here sometimes are bold about the fact that they could care less about people that are not white. I was told I didn't deserve to be here by an individual 
in one of my classes. We were having a discussion about affirmative action and he didn't feel 
that blacks should even be at this institution and you know, my grades are fine. I mean, I'm 
struggling, but I think everybody is, and I think I fit in here academically just as well as anyone 
else. Socially, definitely not, but academically, yes, and that's the argument he was making -­
that I wasn't smart enough or that kind of thing. 
He made the assertion that there are no black people that could measure up? Well, he could 
understand why children of alumni are given priority as far as affirmative action is concerned 
because their parents went here or they have some kind of financial connection --you know you 
like to get alumni children to come here. He understood for athletes because I guess in some 
way, they'd be bringing money into the school, you know, to help the program out, but he didn't 
understand why affirmative action applied to black students. He's like, "They don't do anything 
for the school." And I was trying to tell him that they actually do, they provide some kind of 
diversity for the school, because a lot of people here have not every been around people that are 
from the outside, so in a sense they do help anyone who doesn't come for just an academic 
education. You could learn from the 2 or 3 black people that are here. But he failed to see my point of view, which is fine. I mean, I wasn't trying to change his mind; I was just letting him 
know that I thought he was anal. He's so angry. 
Was that an isolated incident? Well, that was just one time my freshman year. I was --this guy 
asked my I even came here; you knew what it would be like, so why did you even come here? It's almost like they want to keep it this way, like they don't want to change it or anything. The more people who come here the more chance it has to change. God forbid it should get diversified. We might learn from one another. I've had some instances I'd rather forget, but not all bad. There are some people here who are really nice and friendly. I guess that's also part of the southern thing, hospitality, and there are some people who are really nice, but you do bump into people who --Well, I guess that's the situation everywhere; you are going to bump into people who aren't going to be so friendly. 
If the school differed from the way it seemed when you first heard about it or visited the campus, please describe how it differed. 
14. Please describe what you consider to be your greatest challenge at Washington and Lee. 
How have you dealt with it? I guess just being accepted in general. I used to have a lot of friends and that's just not here. It's like you have just a couple of friends, but usually they're the black ones. It would be nice to get to know some of these white students on a social level, but I'm just different to them. Like, ifl say something, to them it's always funny. Like, not in a mean way, everything is "Oh, you're so funny, you're so funny." A lot of times, well, actually I'm being serious. I really don't seen anything funny about what I'm saying, but it's like they don't know any other way to react to what I say or what I do besides, "Oh, she's so funny." And that like a lot ofpeople, not matter what I say --I could be really serious or something, and everything is a joke to them. I can be in class and in class discussion, and I'm very honest about things and everything's funny. I feel like I try to make friends and whatever, and I don't want to change who I am to make friends. That's not worth it. That will never be worth it. There are just some things you won't do to make friends. I like some of the people here, but -­So, you 're greatest challenge here has been to --Trying to fit in, trying to be accepted without losing my own identity. So, how have you dealt with that --how do you approach dealing with that? I don't know, I guess I try not to give into the sterotypical black person that there is --I guess I go out of my way to be extra nice to people. 
You were saying that your challenge is how to be accepted and still be true to yourselfand that you try to do that by not giving into the black stereotype. What do you mean by that? Like I don't --I guess, like I make sure that I let people know that I'm just as smart as they are. Not in an arogant fashion, but you know, when I'm in class I conduct myself --I try --in a manner --I guess a lot of people see blacks as criminals, ghettos, just --I'm not like that and --at least I don't think so. It's like, you're not that much different from me, we just might look different and I try to communicate that to people to a certain extent. By being articulate in class? Yes, like I'm just as smart as you are and I have a brain, you know. But I also like to have fun. I tried not to come here with a chip on my shoulder, but you kind of develop one after you've been here for a little while. Because? Because you want to come here with an open mind and you do, but after you've been here for a little while, you see people's true colors and you start to wonder if this is all a front when they're with you and then when they're not with you, if they just like talking --that sort of thing. What makes you wonder? --What do you mean by--I'm not questioning what you 're saying, but I'd like to know more about what you --what gives you the signals about what their true colors are and make you wonder what they 're saying behind your back? 
Just like, for instance --well, let's just take FD that just passed. And its cut-throat for an African-American woman to even get a date on this campus. So, you know, you have friends and you could always be like well, "Ifyou have any friends that don't have a date, I'd like to go and then we could go." And these are the same females who hang out with you every now and then and they think you're so funny and so much fun to be around, but as soon as you say something like I don't have a date, but I'd like to go and if you have any friends --and it's like all of a sudden these people don't have any friends, it's like you're okay with them on a selective basis, I guess, but when it comes to actually going out with them, all of a sudden you're not good enough or something. And then you start to wonder, well, we're friends and ifl'm good enough to be your friend I should be good enough to go with one of your friends on a date or that kind of thing. Little things like that. 
15. How has your academic performance at Washington and Lee compared with your performance in high school? Not at all. High school was great. My grades were great, like I had above a 4.0 when I graduated and my grades were excellent in high school and I still had time to do anything I wanted to do. I was still President of my class, played varsity sports and lettered and every thing. It was great and I didn't have to study as much, here I have to study and pull all nighters and I have stress and kill myself to just get a Band even then, I'm not guaranteed of getting a B. I have a B average overall, but I have to work really, really hard to get that. As hard as I work, I should be an A student, but that isn't demonstrated on my grades. 
16. What academic resources have you used at Washington and Lee? 
Undergraduate library X on a regular basis. 
Science library 
Computer facilities. 
Writing Center. 
Tutors in the disciplines. X, I had a tutor for Economics 101. 
Study groups. 
Public lectures on academic subjects. 
Language lab. 
Visiting professors in their offices. X, I visit professors all the time just because I 

feel I need to get to know them so I know what they want. 
Do you have suggestions for the development of these or other facilities? Not really, I mean they're fine --basically fine the way, they are. Were there any academic needs that you couldn 'tfind support for? No, not particularly. People can't carry you through things. 
17. What factors contribute or contributed to your selection ofa major course ofstudy? I tried to find something --being that I want to go into law, there's nothing that you can major in, so I was trying to find something that I would be able to get decent grades in without failing out, but at the same time, find something connectiveness with something that I could do in law school. And I like politics, certain aspects of it. 
18. Have you changed majors since you have been enrolled at Washington and Lee? 
Please describe that change. Well, when I came here I thought about being a history major. I took one course and that was the end of that. I mean, I did alright in the course, but it was just too much. Too much, in what way? Too much reading, there was so much reading. I think I just wasn't -­it was just too much when I got here. I thought, Oh My God. I think anything I started off with at that point would have changed. Had I started out with Politics, it would have changed just because it was a shock to me, the amount of work that was expected. 
19. 
If you saw a person or group of persons lying, stealing or cheating would you report it as an honor violation? No. Please elaborate. Yeah. Well, where I'm from people don't do that. You don't turn in other people because that can get you in even more trouble. You know, that's none ofmy business. I know I'm not doing it and I just have to look out for me. In all fairness, I can't tell on anybody else because I wasn't raised like that. That's just something you don't do. You kind of keep your mouth shut and just look the other way --you didn't see anything. It's considered dishonorable? Yeah, well --it's just like a tattle tail. You just don't tell on other people. I know what that sounds like since the University is big on that, but before I came here -­that's just something you don't do. You just don't tell on other people. Sounds like in your --where you came from it's a matter ofhonor not to tell. Yeah, the way I grew up, you just don't tell on other people. I mean, you look out for yourself --you make sure you're not doing anything wrong. Because you never know who might be telling on you, but as far as telling on other people, I could never do that. 

20. 
Do you find Washington and Lee professors easy or difficult to approach? 


Please describe in what way they are easy or difficult. Actually the W &L professors or nice. I've only had one professor who apparently didn't like female students and I felt like I had to work my tail off in there. I don't think I got the grade I deserved, but that's beside the point, but in general, the professors I've had are a whole lot nicer than the students. They have no problems --I mean, I don't know ifthey're extra nice to you because you're black. I don't know, they figure you're going through enough as it is or what. Do you get that impression? I don't know. Maybe it's just because the way I am with professors, I don't put them on this high totem pole, like I'm not afraid to approach them. I'll talk to them and I'll joke around with them --like Professor Novak, I think he's great. I think he's absolutely wonderful. You see, he accepts me for who I am, I don't have to change for him. 
He jokes around and we kid around and we can talk about serious issues and it doesn't --I think 
the professors here --I wouldn't trade them. 
Have you been able to establish close working relationships with a member or with members ofthe W&Lfaculty? Well, I guess I do like Professor Novack a lot. He's --I don't even know ifhe knows I like him this much. He doesn't need to know it and that's okay with me. He's just so easy to talk to, he just understands. Beside him, Professor Senechal, she's nice. She's my advisor. I don't even know her like that, but the other black students love her. They think she's really nice. I think she's nice; I don't know her like that, but from what I do know, she does seem to be real nice and laid back and stuff. I guess if I needed to talk to somebody, I could definitely go to her, I don't see why that would be a problem. Yeah, the professors here are alright; there's nothing really wrong with them. It's just the students. 
21. What has been your experience at W &L with regard to social life? At W&L it's terrible for black students. Ifyou are not in a fraternity or sorority, basically you're nobody. But I think that goes for both, any independent. But, I mean, like me, I go to fraternity parties and stuff on the weekend, but it's not as much -I mean, we have fun but I think we have to make our own fun. But it's not as much fun as these other students, and we don't get to go to these, um, like these other social gatherings that fraternities and sororities -I mean we don't get asked to these, so we don't know what it's like to be on the other half, actually do the other things. Like they always have big functions, and like I run track and the students (I shouldn't have said that) and the girl that I run with, they are always talking about a certain thing that their sorority is having this weekend, and it sounds like a lot fun, you know. But sorority's not really my type of thing, at least not a sorority here. But it always feels like I'm being left out of something. Like the students here think this is such a huge party school and it's so much fun here, but I don't see it being so much fun here at all. It isn't fun for me, so I guess -I would say it's like that to some extent [for all independents]. More males that would be independent than females. It's not a secret that this school is fraternity oriented. So if you're a male and you are not in a fraternity, basically you are nobody on this campus. And that's understood, people know that. But ifyou're a female, it's good to be in a sorority but it's not as demanding, not as essential to be in one, to be included, to be part of the group. But for males I think it is. That's why we have such a high percentage ofmen that are in fraternities. But in all fairness, there's nothing else to do around here. So you might as well be in a fraternity. 
How important to you is alcohol at a social event or social engagement? It's not. I think that is one of the main differences between me and a lot ofthe students here. I drink, from time to time, and I do have fun, or whatever, but I never drink to get wasted. And I don't need alcohol to have fun. See, a lot of the students here, they need that alcohol to have fun. I could have fun and if alcohol .... that's fine, too, but that was never a priority for me to have alcohol to have fun. 
How important to you are drugs at a social event? 
I rather they not be there. Because when they're there, I'm not. 
How much have you experienced them? When I got here I went to a party and I had some laced brownies and I didn't know they were laced brownies. I was thinking they were just regular Betty Crocker brownies. And I got real sick. I don't know ifI was sick because I was angry that I felt like I was taken for granted, or if I really had a reaction to the fact that these were marijuana brownies or not. But that's just not 
something that-I don't really care to be around drugs. I'd rather be drug free. That's just not 
essential for me [to have drugs around]. I don't need that. 
Other than that one experience, is that something you've had to be aware of? 
No, that was basically it. A lot of the students here do smoke and do other things, like, they do 
smoke weed and cigarettes and whatever. But, I don't really count that because if it's in that 
sorority, then I'm not there. This is really a big alcohol school. 
22. 	
What experiences, ifany, have you had with Greek organizations on campus? How would you evaluate or describe any experiences you may have had? 

23. 
Evaluate your experiences with regards to athletic teams/athletic facilities/and physical education classes. 


I love the athletics. I'm only involved in that one sport, but basically it's almost all year-round. And I like it. It gives me something to do besides my academics. It gives me exercise and I think it's great. As far as physical education, I think that's a waste of time that we need five, or whatever. Because, if you are in a sport, you put in a whole lot more hours than for that one time that you're in there with other students. I mean, if I'm in a track meet, I'm there all day on a Saturday. That's enough credit for the semester of P.E. And I don't see why I have to, I only get two ofthose, and then -I just think that's a waste of time. Ifyou are not an athlete, then by all means. But ifyou are, I think you get enough exercise. I don't think you need to be, on top of other things, trying to fit in a P .E. course. 
What about the facilties? I think they're great. W&L has a whole lot of money and they know what to do with it. No, the facilities are great. I mean, we have a pool -I don't know how to swim much, just enough to pass the test -no, please, the facilities are really nice, 'cause I would brag about how nice it is here. 
24. How would you characterize your opportunities for "dating" while enrolled at Washington and Lee? 
Well I don't go out on dates .............. there's just hookups here. 

What does that mean? I think that has a varying degree of meanings, but from what I understand, basically it like I said that is a fraternity's function. You go to a fraternity party or whatever, you get drunk or maybe you don't get drunk, usually you are drunk, and you end up with somebody for the night. Now what goes on in that time span is, I guess, your business, but I guess it can go for many things. I think it's fair game, everything, I think. A lot of times, people go out and expect to hook up, that's what it's called, hooking up. There's a couple of people that date on this campus, but as far as dating is concerned, that's just not something that's going on around here. They're different, the people that date here. People here just hook up: you end up with somebody one weekend, somebody the next weekend, somebody the weekend after that. 
What do you mean when you say that the people who date here are different? What I mean is that obviously the hookup scene is not what they're in for, and it's just different. They prefer to have a steady relationship. 
So your opportunities are limited because the scene ­The opportunities are limited because I'm a black person and the white guys here will not date black females. It's not that I'm the most gorgeous girl, but I don't see anything wrong with me, but that's fine and people are definitely entitled to their preferences. So that's the main reason why the social life, here, for me is less. IfI were white, I think there would be no problem. 
Someone suggested that most ofthe women go over to VMI to find relationships. Is that something you've explored? 
Well, yeah, when I first got here, I mean that's not how I intended for things to work out, you know? But, the guys over there are a whole lot more down to earth than the guys here, I think. Even the white guys over there. And when I first got here, I was kind of seeing some -not all at the same time! Yeah, I guess if you want to call it "dating" it would be guys over at VMI, definitely no one here ever. That's not by choice, you know. There some guys here I find very attractive, but they just won't give you the time of day. 
25. Have you ever considered transferring from Washington and Lee to another college/ university? Yeah, I thought about it a lot freshman year. Like I was looking in the book for other schools that would offer a decent education. I just hated it here. It was just bad. I wasn't having any fun here at all. But now I've made friends that I wouldn't want to trade. I've suffered so much that I'm not going to just finish. And I felt bad, but it's the truth. But ifl don't finish here, I am not trying to transfer credits and end up having to do another year in another school. It's not worth it. It's not that bad. It just could be so much better. I don't know what I could recommend for it to be better, but this school is so homogeneous. It rates number One in the Princeton Review for least diversity. Everyone knows it. This is terrible. 
Why/why not? 
Ifyes, what factor(s) influenced you to stay? 
I made friends that I really wanted to stay here with. I am assuming that in the future this will pay off. And if it doesn't, I don't know what I am going to do with myself. If it doesn't, I think I just might slit my wrists. Because I feel like I have given up so much. And maybe not. That might not even be the case. I might just feel that way because I'm here. It's like I'm stuck, but -I mean, I just feel like I've given up a lot and I just hope it pays off. And if it doesn't then I don't know, I'm going to be very disappointed, I think. 
26. Have you had a paidjob on campus (including work-study)? I was catering for a little bit, but that was out of my own -the school -if you're poor and you're black and you want to come here, the school pretty much lets you be here for free. I'm here for free, I'm not afraid to say it. I don't know if that's part of my scholarship, and part of the school -because I think my scholarship only paid for freshman year, so I think the school pays for the rest. And I get all I want, which is good because I don't have right much anyway. But yeah, I was catering for a little bit. But then I stopped that because it was just too much time with the catering and sports and academics. 
Ifso, has this influenced your level ofsatisfaction at W &L? Well, I just did it because I needed some money, and I pride myself on being different. And the kids here probably never worked a day in their life. I guess I've grown to be a little hostile, but I can't help it because people don't know what it's like. Like I don't expect you to understand. You have to like really be a black person and walk around here so that you can see what it's like. Everyone is like, "It's not as bad as you think." White people tell me that they think I see more into it than they do. Like I see myself-they say that you bring that upon yourself, but I really don't think so. Because when I came here I really was going to be open-minded and I was going to be, like, you know. But after being here nearly two years, and things really don't get any better, you know, when you have a whole bunch of friends like most of the other people do, it's just like, well, you know, obviously I'm not part of the problem. Cause I think I try. I really do think I try to be really nice to people, and I try to get to know people. People here are just ­
You haven't gotten responses. 
Not really, not really. Some people do, though. Some people are really -but sometimes that's 
only on a superficial basis, sometimes that's all right. Like I've met some really all right white 
females here. 	Cause I've told them what it's like to be here, to be me and be here. And a lot of 
them understand, at least they try to understand -you really can't understand. So it's all right. 
27. Would you be willing to recruit other students for Washington and Lee either as a student yourselfor as part ofan alumni program? Please elaborate. 
See, I don't know about that. Cause I wonder if I want other students to come and suffer the way I do. But, at the same time, I don't know if-like if does pay off for me, maybe it's a good thing, so maybe I do need to. It's obviously a good thing for the school. But by the time the school gets diversified, I'll be out of here. So what is it really going to do for me? So I don't know. I'm kind of in the middle of that, cause I don't know if when prospectives come, I don't know if I should tell them to come here or not. I don't want to lie to them and say "Yeah, you should come," then they come and they're suffering and I'm like "God, I'm sorry for telling you to come here." But I think as an alumni, maybe I'd feel differently, and I'll probably love this place when I get out. Well, I'll take that back. I don't know about "love." But I'll probably be grateful that I went here. I hope that I'm grateful that I went here. I might not know til later, but I'm honest with people now. Like I tell them, "You should come because this and this is good, but just so you know, this and this is bad." There's no surprises. There are always surprised, but at least you have some kind of inkling before you get in. 
Now we ask some background information: 
28. 	In what geographical location did you grow up: Country: State: New York 
In what type ofarea or community did you spend most ofyour growing up years? 
Urban New York City/ South Bronx 
Suburban 
Rural 

29. 	Describe the type ofhigh school you attended. Urban Not really urban but not suburban-in Maryland -a cross between the Suburban two. It wasn't far from D.C. but it wasn't in Lexington. Rural 
Predominantly 
Black 
White 
Mixed X It was pretty mixed, actually, which is what I liked about it. Now that I think about it, there were a lot more black people, but there was a fair number of white students, Hispanics, Asians, everything, you know. 
Please give the kin relationship(s) between you and family members in your home when you were growing up. 
We have a very close-knit family. I have a mom and dad who have never separated. I have an ideal family: I have a mom and dad and an older sister and a younger brother. No step-siblings or anything. It's just us. It's a nuclear family, is what you call them. We're real close, like, I love 
my parents. A lot of people don't understand. Like I look forward to break to go home and see 
my parents. That's something I look forward. I like to see my parents. My parents aren't older. 
They're in their forties and forty or forty-four. A lot of people here, their parents are like fifty­
six. Not that that's old, but my parents had me when my mom was 21 and that's like unheard of 
around here. People don't have them until they're like 35. 
31. What was the highest level ofeducation achieved by your parents, guardians, or others with whom you lived when you were growing up? 
My father never got his high school diploma, he went to high school but just never finished. My 
mom has an associates degree, so she went to community college for two years. 
What are the occupations or professions ofyour parents or guardians? 
My dad, he works in a garage, like he's a garage attendant, like he protects cars, that kind of thing. My mom, she works at a bank, she's a payroll clerk. 
32. As compared to other W &L students, how would you characterize your overall social 
class position (based on parents' education andfamily income)? 
I would say I'm very, very Poor, with a capital P. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm poor, that's fine. 

How do you think this has affected your experience? I think a lot ofthe kids here make me angry because they don't realize what they have. Like people are concerned about where they're going for spring break and the boots that they didn't get for Christmas. Just things that I think are so trivial. Like, that makes no sense. Like I worry about whether my parents are going to be able to pay bills, you know what I'm saying? And they're concerned about -it just makes me angry that they don't understand. But in all fairness, they know no other way, so I guess you play the game with the hand that's dealt you. And if you've got a better hand, then so be it. 
I hear you keep saying "in all fairness" like you 're trying to cut everybody slack while at the same time you 're angry. Well, it's not that -I don't want to be angry, but it's not everybody's fault. You know, I did choose to be here. And everyone's not like that. And I guess you really can't help the society you were brought up in. A lot of times, if you're racist and you're prejudiced, it's because of how you were brought up. So if you know no different, I don't know if that's bad or if it's ignorant, but what else can you do. 
So, how do you think this has affected your experience, that you 're poor and they aren't? 
Well, I don't know ifl just value things more. Trivial things are trivial to me. I guess I've just lived a little on the rougher side. 
33. 	In general how do you think about yourselffirst at Washington and Lee -­as a member ofa particular racial/ethnic/national/gender group, or as a student? 
I guess I think of myself as a student. I really don't think of myself as a black female student until the issue is brought up in some social gathering, and then I see it, it's brought back. Yeah, student first, but it's quickly reminded that you're a black female student, or whatever. I mean, people talk about getting a tan around here! Everyone's lounging around the quad, it's like a tanning salon. I'm like OK, you know. Like I don't need a tan. A lot of kids here don't even like black people, but they all want to be dark. I haven't gotten past that. 
Please explain. 
34. How homogeneous do you believe black students are on this campus? In answering please consider racial identification, political perspective, and/or social class position. 
I think the black students here range differently. We have some very wealthy black students abd take advantage ofthe fact that they are black and get a lot of financial aid. And we have some very poor, some individuals like myself. I think as far as monetary situations are concerned, there are the really well off or I'd say poor. Not poor, but, not well off. A lot ofthese people fit in financially with the W &L white students evenly. Racial identification .... it's not just being black. Then you have Jamaican students, whom you would think to classify as black -is that what the University does, it classifies them as black or as international students. They are not classified as black but as international students. You know how you check off what you are? I think there is "other" -there is an article in the Trident that said there were only four black freshmen, and we had thought there were nine. 
Does it say Black or does it say African-American? 
See, I don't know which it says. I'm not sure which one in particular, but we figured out that they were not including the Jamaican students whom we had thought were considered black. ... They separate themselves from the other black students. They are more prone to associating with the white students. Maybe, I don't know, it just depends. 
So racial identification you are seeing as varying as based on whether they are from another country? 
Yeah. 	If they're from another country, they really don't count themselves as black. 
How about political perspectives? I don't know. We have some black Republicans. I believe most of them are Democrats. But we don't talk about that, just because a lot oftimes how you classify politically has to do with money, and a lot ofthe black students here don't want people to know that they are actually wealthy. But you can't help it when you see the kinds of cars they drive. Politics is one of those things that's taboo to talk about, what you are. I think mostly Democrats with one or two Republicans. 
35. 	How similar or different do you believe blacks and whites are on this campus? Consider the same categories that are mentioned in number 34 above and add any other factors that you deem important. 
Well, I've already mentioned that some of the black students here fit in financially with the white students............... I think this campus is, the students are Republican, Republican conservatives as opposed to some of the black students who are liberal Democrats. And I don't know if the white students just even bother to put down any ........ that they may have. If they are just "white" or ifthey say they're Irish, Dutch, I don't know if they do that. 
It sounds like you 're saying that the white students and the black students are pretty different. 
Yeah, I'd say they are different. I would say at opposite ends ofthe spectrum. 
36. Do you believe the size ofthe black student enrollment at Washington and Lee is adequate or inadequate? 
Inadequate. There should be more blacks here. Not only blacks. There should be more of everything here. It would just be a lot better for education, as far as off the textbooks. The reputation ofthis school carries. It's a wonder that they even have the few blacks that they do have. You know, you go to Lee Chapel, and Lee wasn't all that great for us. He is worshipped with flags. It's like a slap in the face to a lot of us. We don't let that go. You walk in the door and these huge flags are all over the place, and -do we want to go back? Do I want to go back? 
So you 'd like to see more diversity ofall kinds, for the purpose ofhaving a good education. 
Yes, just in general. That's how the world is, I think. Besides just what you learn off the 
textbooks. There is so much more you can learn interacting with different kinds of people. And 
it's not just that this school is white. There is nothing wrong with white people at all. It's the 
same type of white people that go to this school. Everyone's the same, everyone dresses alike, 
khakis and the blue, everything is the same around here. Ifthere were different kinds of white 
people, OK, at least there's diversity. 
Do you believe the number ofblack professors is adequate or inadequate? 
I understand there's only one? Delaney. There's Grant-Thomas who's not really a professor. I 
guess in relation to how many black students there are, I guess it's fair enough. Ifyou only have 
40 or so blacks -it would be nice if there were more faculty that were black. It all goes back to 
the school. Black people might not want to work in an environment where everything is so 
South and so traditional and so conservative. Black teachers, I would assume, would try to go to 
a black school and it would be like helping their own wise up. It would be very nice to see more 
here. The professors here aren't the problem. They are nice, they're fine. I don't even know 
Professor Delaney. So the fact that he's black doesn't phase me at all. 
Do you believe the number ofblack administrators is adequate or inadequate? Explain. Do we have black administrators? I wouldn't know how to answer that because as far as I'm concerned it's just Delaney and that other professor. I don't know of any other people who are black except the people who work in the Dining Hall and in the bookstore and people like that. I know of no other blacks here. 
37. Should the university offer activities designed to bring new black students together? The University should have, like other schools have, a black minority recruitment weekend. Not just black, a minority recruitment weekend. Every university has it and that's how they attract a wide range of people. And then you have a lot of plans for that weekend and people get to know each other. Apparently they used to have it and they did away with it, way back. 
What would it be like? 
I guess you would invite blacks, Hispanics, whatever who are interested in coming here. You would do typical touring and classes, but you could have a party, a question and answer session, just that kind of thing. You could go to classes on Friday, and socialize on a Saturday. The students that come here don't get to see the social life of blacks. It's like classes, and they see nothing but a bunch of white students sitting in class. They don't even get a chance to go to fraternity parties and see what that may be like. I think they should try a little harder. Something else should be said. When a lot of these students who come here for free and they still don't come, why? That's up to the school, itself. If they are paying them to come to school and get a good education and they still don't come and choose to go somewhere else and pay somewhere else, something is wrong with the institution. The university isn't doing something right. I really don't know what that is. I think they try, maybe they could try a little harder, let the black students here do some recruiting of their own. I really do think a minority weekend would help. It does help at other schools. 
Ifnot, why not? 
Ifyes... do you have suggestions? .. A recruitment weekend. 
This question addresses things that would bring new students together who have already decided to come, and once they are here, would bring new black students together. 
I think it would be nice to have black Greek organizations here. But that's a difficult process because you need the numbers and there's a lot you have to go through. A lot of students, when 
they look for colleges, they do look for black Greek life, and this school has nothing. That's 
something that they want to do when they are in college. If a school offers nothing, it's 
automatically Xed out. It would nice to have some black guys, but you have to have the black 
population before you can have any kind ofactivities. 
Has the Chavis House played a role in your life at W &L? Please describe. We have our MSA meetings there. I get along with the black students perfectly fine. Even some of the black students we have have their own cliques. You'd think we'd all be together, but we're not. It's all right, but I don't go there that much. I don't see it as a place for me to go. My room is fine. There really isn't anything there. It's nice for those people who don't have a TV or a VCR, they can go over there. But I'm not walking down there just for that. 
Has the Minority Student Association played a role in your life at W &L? Please describe. I think the MSA is important because it's the only thing that minority -it's turned out to be a black organization -we do have some nonwhite members. In general, if you are black, you are in MSA and if you are not then you are in International House. The Minority Student Association is not just black but somehow it's gotten to be that way. We didn't promote that, but that's just how it turns out. I think it's good because sometimes we plan parties and we invite other schools, and it gives us something to do besides the usual flat things. We bring speakers here, like Yolanda King. I think MSA is important. That's the only thing that black students really have here. 
Do you go to meetings fairly regularly? 
Yes. 
38. Do you believe that it is important that courses in the humanities/social sciences include 
recognition or study ofworks by persons ofcolor? 
Yes. 

Ifyou think works by persons ofcolor should be included do you think the recognition was adequate, inadequate, or excessive? Please explain. Unless you take an African-American history course or a public speaking course where you might study letters from other people, everything is pretty much white American history. It would be nice to do some other things, Latin American, African. My thing is that ifyou can't at least have it on campus, you should at least be able to read about it. From somewhere you should be able to get some kind of diversified education, whether it be textbooks -from somewhere it should be generated. So I'd say inadequate. 
39. How would you characterize the climate in the classroom for you [as a black student]? Well, I took a history course and there was slavery, and when we got to that part -107, the Civil War -I liked the course. History is history. I have no problem with discussing slavery. That doesn't bother me because that was history and I'm assuming white people will never go back to that, but you have to know where you came from before you know where you're going, so that's OK. But everyone was expecting me to come up and give the other side. But I said, I wasn't there! You weren't there! They look at me for the answers, but I'm learning just what you are. They look at you like you're the spokesperson for all the black people in the world, and that's not the case. They think you should speak up for the entire race. 
Does that come up often? 
Sometimes. Usually they stay off the racial issue and they really don't ask you to discuss it. But if I bring it up, they might ask -they just won't discuss it. They won't discuss the racial issue here. 
So the climate in the classroom for you as a black student is? 
It's all right, but ifl say something, it's a joke. It's so funny. And everyone waits for me -like in my sociology and anthropology classes, everyone waits for me to say something. I feel I'm entertainment for people at times. They say, "You're so funny, you crack me up." Like this guy was following me around forever, he wanted to courses that I was in because he thought I was so funny. That's nice that people think I'm funny. There's nothing wrong with that. But when I'm serious I like to be taken seriously. But everything's funny. And that makes me angry, because everything is not funny. 
Do you think that's related to your being black? 
I just think that they don't know how to react to me. Laughing, you can always get away with that. You don't want to be serious. Laughing is thought to be a good thing. They probably aren't used to interacting with very many people besides white students so why not laugh. There's nothing else you can do. 
Ifyou have encountered 'problems in the classroom, how have you dealt with those difficulties? 
I don't know how I deal with them. I don't think I have a set pattern. I just go to class and if everyone thinks it's funny, fine. Ifnot, that's fine too. 
40. What is the role ofthe Office ofMinority Student Affairs? I'm not really sure. 
Dean McCloud 's office. Oh! I wasn't thinking. OK. A lot of us black students really don't go. Ifthey want something done we don't go to the Office of Minority Student Affairs. We go to Dean Manning and Dean Howison. They have power. They'll help us. You might go to the Office of Minority Student Affairs to complain, but you're not getting anywhere. You go to complain to someone who has power. Dean Manning is great. You tell him, I don't like this. He's a mover and a shaker and things get done. You see something. The Minority Affairs, I don't see very much, to be honest. They're good with helping with tutors and stuff to make sure you keep your grades and don't fail out. But, as you can see, I didn't even know the title! 
How can the role ofthis Office be improved? I think the person in charge could be given a little more power. I don't how much and I don't know what she has, but it doesn't seem that she employs it very much. Dean McCloud doesn't really -we don't see her as helping the black students here very much. I think she means well, but we are just not going to get anything done. Maybe somebody with a little more authority, a little more pull, a little more aggressive. She is so, I don't know, empty. She's just not very efficient. We like her but we don't see her as too helpful. When she gets angry we go above her but she has no power so we have to just skip the middle man. 
So, you 've said a couple ofdifferent things, and I think I needyou to be real clear. You've said she doesn't have enough power. And then you said she needs to employ it more. What I'm trying to say is that maybe she does have this power and we just don't know because she hasn't employed them. Like she took us to dinner and we talked and she was supposed to get to know us, but if we really had a problem, I don't think she'd be able to help very much. 
Do you mean she hasn't been given enough power or do you mean she doesn't exercise the power she has? 
I don't know if she doesn't exercise the power or if she doesn't have it. I don't know what's in 
her job description. We really don't see her as all that great. I like her as a person but ­
Andyou 're saying this because ofthe results you don 't see. Is it also because ofenergy -it sounds like you were describing before that her energy is ­Well, like last year they had a black administrator by the name of Angela Allen and she was working minority recruitment. I didn't really know her all that well, but what I do know is that when she wanted to get something done, she was always on the go. Dean McCloud is always so relaxed about everything. Everything is like: "Well, we tried that before but -." Well, let's just try it again, try it differently. There just doesn't seem to be any enthusiasm behind it. She doesn't understand that these are our four years and we're sacrificing and we're trying to make the best of it, and we need her to make the best. She figures she did her part, she went to school, she's all done. She might have the power and just not know how to use it, or she might not have powers to help us. So we just skip over her. What's the point-she's not going to help. 
41. From whom do you receive the greatest emotional support on campus? Do not use name(s), but please describe the person(s) in terms ofrace, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and position (i.e. fellow student, faculty member, administrator, staffmember). Ifappropriate, include more than one individual and describe the type ofsituations in which the person provides emotional support (i.e. personal, family, religious, etc.) 
Actually I have emotional support from my black friends. It's understandable. We pretty much walk in the same shoes so we know what it's like. IfI have to complain about something, ifI don't think something is fair, they know, because they've been going through the same thing ­maybe not to the same degree or maybe slightly different. IfI need a shoulder to lean on, someone who would be completely understanding, then it would be my black friends. Faculty, you don't really expect them to understand. I discuss my racial problems with faculty. I don't have a problem with that. But faculty is faculty and there's always a -you know, you have to be here for over two years and I don't want them to think that I'm completely close-minded and that I hate it here because that's not the case. I just can't make him understand, and no matter how much he tries -you know, you really can't make people understand. I give them that, they try. You just don't know what it's like until you've walked. 
In what kinds ofsituations do your friends provide emotional support? Like when I was in class and I had my little conversation with these guys about affirmative action and things like that, if I wanted to continue -you know, "I met this guy today and he told me this, that and the other." they are more prone to understand than someone else. They'11 be like "Well, I kind of agree with him." IfI needed someone, my friends would be the first I would go to. I live with them. 
What percentage ofyour friends are black, what white, and what international? 
The majority of my really close friends are black. All of them are black. I do have a couple of white female friends that I could talk to, that I don't have a problem with. Those I have met through track and stuff. Some of my white friends are cool, but they're not my really close friends, they're like associates. No international friends. There's really no one else here but whites. There's a couple but, you just get tired of trying. When you first get here you are eager to make friends and to meet people. After a while, when you see that people don't return the same eagerness or whatever, you just forget them, you figure you're not pressed for friendships. 
You just haven't encountered international students to try with? 
No, like I'm part Hispanic so -that would definitely have to be stretching it. So there is one girl, and she's nice. The fact that we're from the same country but we're not. She's nice and we 
talk every now and then, but I don't just pick up the phone and call her and we don't hang out. 
It just hasn't happened. There just aren't many people here. 
42. 	Have you experienced any discriminatory behavior on campus directed against yourself? What form did that behavior take (written remarks including graffiti, spoken remarks, physical assault, discriminatory treatment). Who was responsible for that behavior? 
Individual students 
Student groups 
Greek 
Non Greek 
Faculty 
Staff 
Security Well, freshman year, on my hall as I walking, minding my own business, the walls are thin and I could hear people talking and these people on my hall were saying stuff like -they were naming pretty much all the black freshmen that there were and describing them and just saying "Why are they here? It makes no sense to be here. I wouldn't be here if the roles were reversed." I didn't expect to hear everybody that I knew being referred-I didn't stay to find out what else was being said. Obviously, it couldn't have been too good ifwe were being discussed. We don't sit around and discuss every white person on this campus. I don't understand why people were discussing us. But I've never really encountered anything personal. No one has ever called me a nigger, or anything like that. Not besides being told that I don't belong here, that kind of thing. A lot of people think I'm very forward, very rude, even. This guy said, "I think you are very rude." But I don't care what he thinks, because he's not giving me a grade. This was a different person. My professors, I don't see them as being completely unapproachable. If I like you and you're nice, I might walk by and say, "Hey! What's up?" It's OK. You're human, I don't see why there's such a -like I remember freshman year, I was taking a history test and these two professors were talking as loud as they could, and everyone in the class was trying to be nice about. But I had studied for that test, so I walked out there and I was nice about it, and I said, "Look, we're taking a test, ifyou'all would keep it down, I'd appreciate it." Everyone in the class thought I was completely crazy, because I would have the nerve to say something like that. But I didn't see what the big deal was -they were people, they were in my space, so I just asked nicely, and they understood, I think they understood, I don't know. The students here would never approach a professor in that way. Like I get around my professors all the time, you know. Not all my professors, the ones I feel like I can. Everything is so cut and dry, so straight. Lacking in verve! 
So you haven 't experienced much specific discriminatory behavior? 
No. And that's good.. 
Leaving aside behavior, do you sense racial tensions on campus beyond what exists in the larger society? I don't know about beyond what exists in the larger society because racism is everywhere. But the fact that there is no diversity at this school, being at the other end of the spectrum, being a minority, sometimes you do. Sometimes you walk in a room and you're the only black person and sometimes you feel like people are looking at you. You might be speaking a different dialect sometimes, like my slang will be completely different from everyone else's. Things like that make you feel the difference. And some people are just too nice. Let's have a backbone, let's be nice but at the same act like -I don't know, some people are so nice they make me mad. Some people are afraid to hurt someone's feelings. And I'll be honest with you, because it's the first thing people see about me. I go to school here, at W&L, and they see I'm black. It's OK, like for me the race issue is OK to talk about, it's the first thing people see about you, it's not "Oh my God, we can't talk about it!" What's the big deal? They have to be careful. They're afraid to offend. Go ahead and offend me so I can correct you so that we are on an even playing field. 
So you 're sensing racial tensions in the sense that people are being so careful and staying away. 
Yes, people try to stay away when they are around you, to a certain degree. Sometimes they might say things. Like we were going to see Spike Lee and someone said, "I can't believe he's coming here. He's so racist." And I'm not a big Spike Lee fan at all, so everyone's entitled to an opinion. I'm going just to be going because he's Spike Lee, but I really don't care very much. When he came out with his jokes I absolutely enjoyed them and people in my class after that, they were just like, "I can't believe he came to this school and talked a lot about the flags and it's so sacred here, ta data da." But it's just a piece of cloth. Let's relax, I don't understand what the big deal is over a piece of cloth. That's great. Whatever amuses you, that's fine. I don't think you should take it down because that's what you believe and I believe in my rights and I don't want to infringe on anyone else's. Everything is such a big deal around here. This ball that the Ks [??] have, it's a Southern Ball. They dress up in their Confederate uniforms and the girls dress up as Southern belles. Where are we going at this school? What's going on here? Can we go forward? Why do we want to keep going back? This doesn't make sense to me. Some of the smartest individuals can be so retrospective in their thinking, it just makes no sense. 
Ifso, how do you think such tensions could be eased within W &L? 
43. Aside from the Honor System do you believe that the student Executive Committee, the Student Conduct Committee or other University judicial committees treat black and white students equally fairly? 
I've never had an situations myself with the Executive Committee, but from what I hear, there was a black student here who allegedly -I don't know how much truth there is to that -stole a coke from the Coop and she was kicked out for a Coke. But apparently, I had a friend here who told me that she was here when the girl was here, and that she never stole the Coke but it was pinned on her, this and that. I would think if they don't want you here, and they have a reason to get you out, they might. If they have to lean on something as small as a Coke to get you out, then so be it. I've haven't experienced anything, but I've heard there was a situation last year, and the girl had a black dorm counselor and she had blatantly violated the honor system, she had alcohol in her room and blatantly lied about it, and she was taken to trial and she was found innocent. But my feeling is that ifyou were a black student, you would be out on your tail so quickly because they had violated, but she was a very rich, white individual. God, we can't lose her because Mom and Dad will have attorneys on our backs so quickly. So I do think it might -the black dorm counselor wasn't believed but the girl, who had been so blatant, was. I think the dorm counselor was believed, but the action taken with this girl -she should have been kicked out of school, because that's what the Honor Code says. She was not kicked out. She is still here. I have nothing against her, personally, but my thing is that if we're going to treat everybody under the Honor Code, then let's treat them equally. Let's not make exceptions. 
So then your assumption is that they are not treated equally? 
No, I don't think they are. 
44. Do you believe that the honor system is applied in an even-handed way to black and white students? 
Going back to what we just said, probably not. 
45. How would you evaluate student publications (i.e. the Ring-tum Phi, the Trident, etc.), the student radio and television stations with regards to opportunities for black students to participate. 
I think they try. I think ifyou want to participate, they try. I don't know if it's so much that they don't want to be seen to discriminate against. If 10 black people try out for something, they have to put at least one on the committee. God forbid they should say none ofus made it. I don't know if many black people care to partake ofthings like that. That's just not my cup oftea, I prefer to do other things. 
So basically you don 't know? 
Yeah. 
How would you evaluate them with regard to their treatment ofnews about black students? A lot of time they try to talk about it, especially there's a lot of stories ofwhat it's like to be a black student on this campus. A lot of times they misquote you. But that's just the media, they always mess up things. So, you would evaluate them as a little limited, maybe? 
Well, all they cover is what it's like to be black. Well, like the past two or three years, the concert has been a rock group. And now it's going to be a problem for other people. 
In what way? Like, I'm on the SD committee, and we don't want to do another rock group this year, we want something different, which is understandable, but, I mean, anything that tries to be different is not allowed here. Like there probably will never be any more black concerts, just because there were a couple of fights that broke out and I'm sure they'll pin that complete on them. But they'll make it a racial issue. It'll be "Black people fought and we can't have that." You just can't understand what it's like to be here. It's crazy. It was a black rap group that was the main part of the concert, and whoever wants to say that we're not going to have rap next year, can always say there fights that broke out. It could be the music, it could be this. 
46. Do you feel that black students at Washington and Lee today have problems that are basically different.from, or basically similar to those ofwhites? Please describe in what way you feel they are different or similar. 
I think we all struggle academically. I mean, some of us have it, some of us don't and we all have got to work at it. I mean students in general. But some whites have advantages. Like a lot ofthem went to prep schools. On the academic level I think we might all be pretty much on equal footing. I don't know about other things, but that might have to do with the individual person. I don't really know how to answer that question. 
*46.  Sex  Female  
*47.  Age?  
*48.  Year in college?  
*49.  Cumulative grade point average [as of Fall 1996]?  3.0  
*50.  How do you identify yourself in terms of nationality?  

51. 
How do you identify yourselfin terms ofrace? Black. 

52. 
Are there additional comments you wish to make about any aspects ofWashington and Lee? 


No, I think I've said it all.