#19 
INTERVIEW OF BLACK STUDENTS ENROLLED AT WASHINGTON AND LEE 
I. Have you decided upon a college major? I think so. I've been taking courses here and there and deciding that's not exactly what I want. 
2. (Ifthe answer to question 1 is no, skip #7.) What is your grade point average (GPA) in your majorfield? IfI stick with Chemistry, I have a 3.6 (?) in that department. Overall I have a 
3.4. In that department I'm not really sure ....biology ... 
3. 	What type ofdegree are you working toward at Washington and Lee? BS definitely 
4. What is the occupation or profession you want to enter upon finishing your education? That's a big question. I'm thinking about industry .... maybe going back to grad school doing sort of a mix, Policy and the sciences .... 
5. Do you plan on working toward an advanced degree at some time after finishing your 
undergraduate program? 
Yes. 

6. While growing up, did you attend or were you personally active in church? Yes, to a certain extent. I went to Christian schools from the time I started school all the way up to 8th grade. It wasn't denominational--a non-denominational Christian private school. 
What about Sundays? Was there a particular denominational church that you attended? 
Baptist church. The school that I attended also had a church, but we didn't go to there. 
How wouldyou characterize your church involvement in Lexington? 
I don't go to church here .... 
7. How wouldyou compare your level ofparticipation in extra-curricular activities in high school and at Washington and Lee? 
I guess more in high school than I do here at W &L. In high school I started off in sports...I did more kind of clubs, honor societies ... Here at W &L I don't participate in any sports ... 
8. How did you learn about Washington and Lee University? 
I went to a college fair .... met with Andrea Allen at one ofthe tables, went from there. 

9. To what extent were you assisted during the admissions process by an alumnus of Washington and Lee? 
Not at all. 
10. 	Didyou visit the campus before you matriculated as a student? Ifyes, under what circumstances? 
Yes, I visited twice, once my dad and I drove right before I was making the decision that I should 
go here or someplace else. Then a second time for some type of weekend event that they were 
having. 
Was it ...... ? 
I guess it was. Because a week before they had some kind of weekend and I heard there were a 
lot of kids here ... 
What kind ofactivities ... 
I can't remember that much that they had planned. I think there was a party at the Chavis House. 
We had .... and we had panel discussions with students, African Americans that went here. We 
were on the other side and .... .I guess just to get an idea of what it was like to go here, we were 
invited to a frat party. The people hosting it took us to a frat party .... 

What kind offeedback did you get from the students here? 
It was just like "this is what life is like here". If you're here because, socialize and you're looking for a husband, all those great things, this is not the place for you. This is an academic school. You look around, there aren't a lot of people like you here ..... 
Please describe your reactions to this campus visit. 
The first time I was here with my dad I don't remember--! was impressed by the campus, it was pretty. I was able to talk with some of the professors. It seemed like they would be top-notch. But other than that--social aspects, I wasn't very impressed. 
What ofit did you see? 
I didn't see anything. I came here I guess it was on a weekend, and we stayed probably 
from about 10 a.m. until about 4 o'clock in the afternoon. We were just on campus, then 
walked downtown. We went to Spanky's. One of the African American students took us 
out for lunch. But I didn't really see anything going on here. So I wasn't really impressed. 
My dad wanted me to go to Hampton University(?) because I had done an internship there 
a couple of summers ago and I really liked the school. He was swaying for going there. 
And he was impressed with the school also. But he thought it was ...... . 
(Here there was some explanation by Jennifer about the confidentiality of the interview-­
could not understand much of it) 

What were your reactions to the other campus weekend? 
It was pretty much the same. I wasn't impressed with the social life, but I thought it was a great school. ... 
So you had your eyes open? 
Yes. 
10a. Was W&Lyour... It was my second choice. My first choice was Loyola College I thought it would be a great school. It reminded me of W&L. It's not ranked as high as W&L. It's like it because it's kind of old, but it's a Catholic school... It's a very small campus. But the good thing about that school is it's right, it's close to ... in Baltimore and so I figured I could have that small atmosphere. On weekends I can still get out and I can still enjoy some type of social atmosphere. That was the difference. 
lOb. About how many other colleges did you apply to? ... 
Two or three. W&L, Loyola College in Baltimore, ..... State, .... , University of.. .. 

1Oc. How many other colleges accepted you? 
All of them. 

11. What made you decide to attend Washington and Lee? It was my parents.....Also the financial aid and scholarship. The way it worked out, I applied to all those schools, I got accepted to all those schools, I received scholarships from all those schools, but okay, once that had happened, !..."which is the best financial field?" When I had come out ofthis, which would look the best? There wasn't another school that had offered me such a good deal...I was kind of leaning toward Loyola. Actually, that's what I wanted to do. But at the end my parents .... 
Social reputation was not one ofthem! Financial assistance, that was....Graduates get good jobs. Size of the college. In high school, my father's co-workers, people that my mom talked to ... There were some people that knew. a lot ofpeople had no idea ... 
Were there other factors you considered in making the decision? 
My parents were happy. They were pleased with my decision. They were more concerned about me, would I be able to get through ..... as a black student.. ... than where I was. So the question became not do you like the school but can you make..... That was the question. 
After you had been accepted and before you came that was the question? 
Even after I had accepted. Even to this day, "are you happy here?" My friends always support me. Anytime I'm ready to leave or I'm ready to pull out because I can't handle it, they would 
support me. 
12. Were there negative images about W &L that made you think seriously about not coming? Yes, there were. I can remember.... One thing was the social outlet.. . .! was used to that. The racism that was here--1 picked up on that the first time I was here .......there was a rebel flag in there ..... odd looks ..... confederate flags were unsettling. Ifyou go in the bookstore, they sell paraphernalia, rebel flags, belts, ties. And in Lee Chapel, they sell it--stores downtown. 
13. Once you were enrolled, did you find the University to be as you had expected? 
I can't say that I was very surprised by anything. I did come with my eyes open. 
So how did that thing about wondering about the rebel jl.ag ...... 

Well, I think that represents to me how people really feel and when..... .I was leaving ... with a friend and as we were walking away I heard some people laughing and joking about some ofthe things that.. ..had said and some ofthe questions the people had asked ...... African Americans. They were sort ofmocking them. I said to myself "I can't possibly know these people and they couldn't possibly know me or be in any kind of contact with me." I happened to turn around and I looked and they were people that were in my classes ..... .It doesn't surprise me. I guess I was surprised by it because . .I don't know, I just was. 
They thought they knew you? No, we weren't friends. I'm not what I call friends with people in my classes. But I guess I kind of expect that .....When you're not sure about someone of another race, maybe when you see someone or you're around someone ofthat race that you're unsure about, you kind of say, ok, here is a representative from that race. She doesn't represent the whole race, but someone from that race. She maybe doesn't fit the stereotype that I believe ... some people, all people are like that. I had problems in more that one class-­
You would hope they would have a consciousness broadening experience? 
Yes ..... . 
Ifthe school differed from the way it seemed when you first heard about it or visited the 
campus, please describe how it differed. You said mostly it didn't. . 
14. 	Please describe what you consider to be your greatest challenge at Washington and Lee. How have you dealt with it? 
I don't know quite how to put it. Kind of keeping myself together. You've got so many things 
going on all at once. You have difficult classes. You have no outlet, nothing to look forward to 
on the weekend except for just a break. .... Your family, you're far away, your friends aren't here, 
....just keeping yourself together, I would say. 
Keeping yourselftogether? Like all the parts ofyou ..... How have you dealt with it? 
I guess just talking to people. Talking to friends, older people who had similar experiences .... 
15. How has your academic performance at Washington and Lee compared with your performance in high school? 
...that's a really funny question .....I did much better in high school, ifthat's what you're looking for, than I am doing here .... This place is a lot more challenging than my high school. I think that would be true for any college, but especially here. I'm not doing as well, but I'm not doing .... 
Maybe you 're not doing as well by the numbers, but maybe you are doing as well. ... . 
16. 	What academic resources have you used at Washington and Lee? Undergraduate library Science library, being a science major Computer facilities. I did not use the Writing Center. I haven't used any Tutors. Study groups I tried to organize--that didn't always work out well. For some 
classes I study with one or two other people. Public lectures--no. Language lab, yes. I used that a lot Visiting professors , yes. Study skills courses, I have not used. 
Do you have suggestions for the development ofthese or other facilities? 
I think that if you need help here, it's out there for you. 
17. 	What factors contribute or contributed to your selection ofa major course ofstudy? 
The most important thing is my interest in that area and how well I do in it. Yes, job placement. 
18. Have you changed majors since you have been enrolled at Washington and Lee? Ifyes, please describe that change. 
Yes, .... .I took 5 courses in ..... .I don't think it's what I want to do anymore. 
19. Ifyou saw a person or group ofpersons lying, stealing or cheating would you report it as 
an honor violation? Please elaborate. 
Sure. I don't know what I'm supposed to do say. 

20. 	Do you find Washington and Lee professors easy or difficult to do approach? Please describe in what way they are easy or difficult. 
I find them easy to do approach ....willing to do help you ...if you haven't scheduled an appointment, if you just happen to do see them on the colonnade or going by their office, they seem very willing to do help. They'll pull out resources, make telephone calls for you. 
Have you been able to do establish close working relationships with a member or with members ofthe W&Lfaculty? 
I can't think of anyone... 
21. 	What has been your experience at W &L with regard to social life? 
There is not any. One does not exist here, for me. Let me make that clear. The partying and drinking and that type of thing is not something that I enjoy doing. And because the fraternities and sororities are a big part of the social life here, that means that I don't really have one. Or, don't really have an outlet. 
What would you like to see .. What would serve you? 
That's a good question. More students like myself. And maybe some other things close by, like, this is kind of impossible, but like a mall or something -better movie theater. Things to actually do. 
How important to you is alcohol at a social event or social engagement? 
It's not important at all. I'm not saying that I never drink at all, but I never get carried away. How does the use of alcohol at social events here effect your experience? There are some times I don't want to go out to a party because of the people that are there. They've been drinking too much, and as a result, their behavior is not to my liking. They get sort of rude, not that they say anything to me, but they may bump into me or spoll beer on me or something like that and that's not my idea of a good time. I'd much rather spend it doing something else. Well, let me be clear. I don't go to parties here. I do not go to parties here unless it's a party that's sponsored by the MSA or by the black men at VMI. Other than that it's very very rare that I'm at a party. I've been to two this year. One I think the first weekend that classes started, and one some random time. And I was disappointed. I always am, so I just don't take my time to go. Is your disappointment based on the use of alcohol at the parties? No, I don't want you to think that. It's more that the music is not to my liking. I don't have anyone to dance with, and I don't want to dance by myself. And I'm not there to drink, and the places, they have this odor to them. They smell like beer and cigaretts, and your shoes and pants get beer and dirt all over them. And you're up pretty late doing really nothing. And my ears usually bother me the next day. So what are the MSA parties at W &L like? Well, they're usually held down in the GHQ. And they have nice music there. There's no alcohol there. There are guys there that I feel comfortable with. And I generally have a pretty good time. 
How important to you are drugs at a social event? 
Oh, not at all. Um Um. 
Have you found it happening that you're aware of? 
No, I haven't found anything that I know about. 

22. 	What experiences, ifany, have you had with Greek organizations on campus? How would you evaluate or describe any experiences you may have had? 
Do you mean outside of parties? 
No, I mean whatever, anything. 
I haven't rushed. Besides the parties I haven't really experienced anything. 

23. Evaluate your experiences with regards to athletic teams/athletic facilities/and physical education classes. 
I haven't joined any of the teams. The facilities, OK, I enjoy the gym they have in Gaines in the basement. I think that's really nice. The other gym could probably use some new equipment, but it's OK. The classes, those are fine. I had an interesting thing happen to me in one class. The first day of class, we were there and the coach was taking role, and he got to my name and he said Tiffany Miles, oh she's here, I saw her already and cheched me off. We had never been introduced, I never new the man, we had never sopken .. So that was odd. The reputation ofyour beauty preceeded you. [Chuckling] I guess so. But he's a nice guy. 
24. How would you characterize your opportunities for "dating" while enrolled at Washington and Lee? 
Not very likely, I would say. Not likely at all. It's possible that you can date someone over at 
VMI, but I wouldn't say here. 
Why's that? 
WEll, I guess I prefer to date African American males and there are not that many African 
American males here, actually fewer males than females. And so, there are not that many, that's 
one thing, and some ofthem have girlfriends when they come here. And other ones you're just 
may be not attracted to. 
What about the VMI opportunity? 
That's difficult, because of their lifestyle. They're very restrained, and they can only get out one 
night on the weekend, it's sort of limited. It's possible, it's very possible. 

25. Have you ever considered transferring from Washington and Lee to another college/ university? Yes. 
Why/why not? Do we have time. The tape may run out before I finish. That's OK. I have lots more tapes. No, why, I guess because the social part has really -it's played a much bigger role than I thought it would. I don't know, I never thought it would effect me this much. The thing is -I have to think about it -OK first of all you have no social outlet. Nothing to look forward to on the weekends. and then you're expected to stay here when the classes are very challenging and a lot of people aren't doing very well in their classes .. Do you mena other black students or in general? I'd say in general. Yeah, some people aren't doing well in their classes. And if you're not doing well, you have nothing to look forward to, and you're expected to stay here and not do well, and not have any outlet, when you could go to just a regular state school. Do a lot better, and have a much better time. So that would be your major reason to consider transferring. That, and there are not a lot of people here that are like me. Could you elaborate on that? There aren't a lot of people that I'm able to identify with. Call on for support. And I think that at another institution, I would be surrounded by friends that have gone through similar situations. And there would be faculty members, administrators that you'd be able to talk to. 
Ifyes, whatfactor(s) influenced you to stay? 
Just the great academics and the possibility of getting a great job when I leave here. LEA VE Here. 
Is this a decision that you've made, or is it a decision that you stay with? It's a decision that I stay with. It's a question that I ask myself esveral times a week and at really stressful times, every day, several times a day. Why am I here? Is it worth it? Did I make the right decision in coming. And a lot of times people ask me that question. And I always say, ask me that question ten years from now. And then I'll give you the answer. I always say, joking, but, ifl leave here and I'm still scrubbing toilets, it will not have been something that was worth my while. It will have been a big waste and I could have spent this time someplace else enjoying myself and getting better grades. But, if this place gets me someplace in life, then I will say that was worth it. 
26. Have you had a paidjob on campus (including work-study)? No. Everybody, including my parents, told me not to work if I can help it, and just concentrate on school. It's an added stress that I con't need. Although I'm thinking about working, but not here on campus. 
Ifso, has this influenced your level ofsatisfaction at W &L? 
27. Would you be willing to recruit other students for Washington and Lee either as a student yourselfor as part ofan alumni program? Please elaborate. 
Hum. Yes I would. I would be willing to resruit students. I would have to say that ifI were recruiting students, I don't know. I'm not going to say that I would be selective. but I think I would be very honest about my experience here and how W&L is, and probably. I'm not even going to say probably. I'm going to say .. it's a good thing to go here to leave with a W&L degree despote a lot of the things that you have to put up with. So sure, I'd be willing to recruit students to get others to come here. 
Now we ask some background information: 
28. 	In what geographical location did you grow up: Country: US State: Maryland 
In what type ofarea or community did you spend most ofyour growing up years? 
Suburban 
29. 	Describe the type ofhigh school you attended. Suburban 
Predominantly 
Predominately Black, my high school. Christian school, predominately white, and that was from pre K on up to 8th grade. 
Please give the kin relationship(s) between you andfamily members in your home when you were growing up. 
WEll, I grew up with my mom and my grandfather, who since passed away. And then later on I lived with, still with my mom, but her aunt also lived with us, and that was about it. And currently I'm living with my father and my brother. So mopst of our growing up your brother wasn't with you? I'm sorry, it was my brother, my mother and I. I have two brothers. One a year older than I, and the other is about 11 years younger than I. So from most of the time when I was growing up it was my mother, my older brother and I. And I always spent the weekends with brother and my 
dad. 
31. What was the highest level ofeducation achieved by your parents, guardians, or others with whom you lived when you were growing up? 
My mother went through her masters at American University, University of MAryland, College 
Park. My dad I think he probably went through the associates at a community college. 
What are the occupations or professions ofyour parents or guardians? 
My dad works at CBS news. He's an associate director there. He workd with Face the Nation, and directed the Christmas tree lighting, and the inauguration this year. My mom, she does so many different things. She works at night at a nursing home, she takes classes, going to school and also she's working at a research project at George Washington University with heart attack patients ... 
32. As compared to other W &L students, how would you characterize your overall social class position (based on parents' education and family income)? 
Probably. I'd say that I'm sort of.. well social class. That's interesting. Um my parents probably .. 
well I don't know that. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing my parents don't make as much as the other 
students parents do. 
What would a quick response that would flash in your brain be? 
I guess I would be middle class. 

How do you think this has affected your experience? 
Hmm. Well that's kind of an awkward sort of question. I think I'm in a different class because I'm an African American. I'm in a different economic class. It would be different if I were white, but I was in a different economic class. So the combination of the two, I think it's affected my experience. I think it would be different if I were just white and in a different class. I think probably I'd be accepted by more students. 
33. 	In general how do you think about yourselffirst at Washington and Lee -­as a member ofa particular racial/ethnic/national/gender group, or as a student? 
As a member of a racial group first. First I'm black, then I'm a student. 
Please explain. 
34. How homogeneous do you believe black students are on this campus? In answering please consider racial identification, political perspective, and/or social class position. 
I guess we're a mix. One of the differences between African Americans and non African Americans, they seem to be from the same class. I don't think that's true for us. I think we come from different places, backgrounds. 
So not very homogeneous. 
35. How similar or different do you believe blacks and whites are on this campus? Consider the same categories that are mentioned in number 34 above and add any other factors that you deem important. 
I want to say that we're more different than similar. I think that's special to this institution. I sort of see this place as not real. It's just a special atmosphere. It seems like you hand pick people from a certain class, from a certain background. I just think ifyou were out on the street in everyday life, you wouldn't get this type of grouping of people. I think that if you went someplace else and you asked the same question, just at a regular school like Virginia Tech, it would be more similar. 
So you think they 're quite different here, but that somewhat artificial because the way the population is? 
Right. Because the way they've been selected and chosen. 
36. Do you believe the size ofthe black student enrollment at Washington and Lee is adequate or inadequate? 
Inadequate, of course. 
Do you believe the number ofblack professors is adequate or inadequate? 
Inadequate. 
Do you believe the number ofblack administrators is adequate or inadequate? 
Explain. 
Inadequate. I think that the university needs more administrators and more professors, not only 
for African Americans but also for whites. A role model, just to know what other people are 
like. The same is true for the black students. I understand that the school is very traditional and 
set in their way-that they're actually looking for a certain type of student or person. At least 
that's my belief based on what I've been told. 
By people who have conversations with Admissions? 

By one of my professors who has been here for a very long time. He had a conversation with my 
dad. They were no recruits, non African American students. They were talking about where the 
students come from geographically. The professor said a lot of them don't come from 
Lexington. My dad said "Why?" He said that W&L wants a certain type of person, and the type 
of person that they want is not a hillbilly, that type of person and that's what they feel this area 
has to offer. So there are very few people from this area. I think the university would like to 
keep itself a certain way in hiring professionals and administrators ... 

Would you like to elaborate on why you think it's inadequate, not the cause, but why you would 
say inadequate? 
They just don't have the numbers. 

What would the benefits be ifit were adequate? You mentioned one; you mentioned that it would 
be an enriching experience just to find out what other people are like. 
I think it would increase our support system. 
So it would be better for those ofyou who are here. 

37. Should the university offer activities designed to bring new black students together? I don't think so. Do you mean students who are just coming here? Freshmen? Well, I guess so. That's not really something that the university has to do. I think that being an African American here, you're going to meet those people that look like you anyway. The university doesn't need to have the type of program to bring students together. 
So would you prefer that they didn 't do it and left it to the students? 
They probably should just leave it to the students. 
Has the Chavis House played a role in your life at W &L? Please describe. Not the house itself, no. 
Has the Minority Student Association played a role in your life at W &L? Please describe. Yes, that's played a big role. They're the ones that host a lot of programs like the speakers. They have activities and things. In a way it seems we're able to channel our voice through the Minority Students Association. 
Do you attend the meetings? 
Yes. 
38. Do you believe that it is important that courses in the humanities/social sciences include recognition or study ofworks by persons ofcolor? 
Sure, of course. 
Ifyou think works by persons ofcolor should be included do you think the recognition was adequate, inadequate, or excessive? Please explain. I wouldn't say excessive. I haven't taken any humanities and social sciences, so it's not fair for me to criticize. 
39. How would you characterize the climate in the classroom for you [as a black student}? Sometimes it's awkward. When issues about African Americans come up, they look straight to you. Questions on "How do you feel about this?" I represent everyone. It's also awkward because I'm usually the only one in my classes. Sometimes I feel that the professors, that even they are sort of edgy. Not that they-I just sort of feel uncomfortable. 
Like they might be less comfortable with you? 
It's just an odd sort of feeling. I don't know if uncomfortable is the way to put it, but that's the only word I can think of. 
Ifyou have encountered 'problems in the classroom, how have you dealt with those difficulties? 
I haven't really had any real problems. It's not that I say "Hey, are you uncomfortable because I'm African American? Is that making you feel sort of edgy or nervous?" No. (Laughter) I don't discuss that type thing with anyone. It's just something I sort of notice. I say "Hey, she seems a little uncomfortable." And I go on with life. I understand that. 
40. What is the role ofthe Office ofMinority Student Affairs? Dean McCloud's office-is that what we're talking about? Dean McCloud helps out with, as far as I'm concerned, any type of academic issues I would have. I guess ifl were having problems with a professor, I would talk with her. Ifl needed tutoring or something like that, that's the only role I guess it plays in my life. 
Are you saying it has played in your life or are you saying it is there to play? 
That is has played and would if I ever experienced any type oftrouble. 
Do you know ofany other role it has that you might call on or that it might be playing in the university? 
Yes, actually they have a Pride (?) meeting ...increased awareness ... a voice from different backgrounds. 
How can the role ofthis Office be improved? 
No. 
41. From whom do you receive the greatest emotional support on campus? Do not use name(s), but please describe the person(s) in terms ofrace, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and position (i.e. fellow student, faculty member, administrator, staffmember). Ifappropriate, include more than one individual and describe the type ofsituations in which the person provides emotional support (i.e. personal, family, religious, etc.) 
I can't say that I go to anyone to receive any type of emotional support. There are times when my professors, one particular professor, will see me and he'll ask how I'm doing, how's my day, give me a hug, and tell me "You'll make it through." I don't actually seek out any particular person to talk with. I talk to my professors, but that's only if it's something about classroom material. 
What about roommates or folks you might hang out with? 
I'd say my roommate. She's the person I get the greatest emotional support from. She is an 
African American female, of course, and I talk to her about academics .... We spend a lot of time 
together. 
What percentage ofyour friends are black, what white, and what international? 
Here? 
Yes, here at W&L. 
Very few of my friends are international. It's a split. I guess I would say most of them are 
black. 	The next largest would be white and international. 
How is it outside ofhere? 
Most ofthem are black. 
42. 	Have you experienced any discriminatory behavior on campus directed against yourself? What form did that behavior take (written remarks including graffiti, spoken remarks, 
physical assault, discriminatory treatment). 
Who was responsible for that behavior? 

Yes, my freshman year I was walking back from the laundry room one night and there were some students behind me, two white guys. I heard one ofthem yell out "There's that nigger." So it was spoken-I've never been assaulted. And then there are other things like-some things that I hear, I try to always distinguish between the reason that the person is saying what it is. Is it because they're ignorant or because this person is really trying to offend me? That was clearly trying to offend me. But there have been other remarks that weren't directed toward me. But I heard one guy, who was talking about Af. Americans, he called them "colored." He was talking about he really likes to go to colored churches, because they know how to worship the Lord. This as a student also. I stopped him and I just told him that we aren't colored anymore. It's just not a word we used to describe ourselves. Catch up with the times. He told me he was from Alabama, da da da-"Save the sob story. It's African American or black." He said "OK." That was a case of being ignorant. I try to distinguish between the two. 
You said there have been other things. 
The other things I think are mostly ignorant comments. 
Not directed specifically against you? 
A lot of the things have been conversations that I have overheard. Besides that one incident, nothing has been directed toward me. Either that or they were just ignorant things. 
Leaving aside behavior, do you sense racial tensions on campus beyond what exists in the larger society? Ifso, how do you think such tensions could be eased within W &L? 
Yes, that's actually what I was saying about, like the Spike Lee thing. I'd have to say that it's tension. It's not like, here I am, I'm racism, I'm in your face. It's covert. I get the sense that people are harboring these types of feelings, but they're not always expressed. 
Are you saying they 're harboring them consciously or unconsciously? You had said that some of it was ignorance, and that would indicate to me that some ofit might be unconscious. What is your sense about that? 
I think it's some of both. The things I heard-Spike Lee-that consciously not expressing it. Other people just don't know that what they're saying just isn't right. Maybe that's partially because of the way that they were raised. Some people haven't been around African American people. They don't know that the things they're saying are just absolutely ridiculous or offensive, for that matter. 
It's interesting to me. What you've been saying indicates two things going on at the same time. One is racial tensions that are there on both sides because someone has a feeling and is harboring that feeling. That would be like in the whole community. And then the other thing 
you 're saying is that people are just ignorant. They may be happy and not tense, but it creates 
tension for you. 
There was another time where I had worn my hair down and one of the coaches (female coach) saw me at dinner and she said "Hey, you look different. I like your hair." I said "Thank you." She said "Did you iron it or straighten it or something?" I said "I'm sorry." She said "Yeah, you know, your hair, it's different. It's so straight. It looks like you ironed it with that hot comb that" -I'm not gonna say you all use, because that probably is not a direct quote. It's ignorant, you know. She just didn't know, but it still creates tension. 
For you. 
Yeah. 
And the question says "beyond what exists in the larger society." 
Can you explain? 
I'm not sure. I didn 't write these questions. I think they want to get a sense of "is there racial 
tension here that's more than would be in-I mean everybody's aware that this is an artificial 
environment. Most colleges are in one way or another. Out in the real world, whatever world 
that is. Is the racial tension beyond what exists in the greater society, outside ofcolleges in general? 
I'm not sure that's true. I can't say that that is really ....! live in Maryland, and I work in the district for the federal government. I work in a very small building. African Americans are a minority there. I can't say that there's any racism or racial tension there in that office than there is here. I look at Washington, DC where I work as a good mix of people. It's not what I consider to be artificial where they hand select people from different economic, social background. And there's just as much racism there and tension there as there is here. 
43. Aside from the Honor System do you believe that the student Executive Committee, the Student Conduct Committee or other University judicial committees treat black and white students equally fairly? I've never had any dealings with these groups. I have heard of certain instances where it seems that they've been treating people unfairly. The one that I heard about, there was an African American male who was accused of stealing a soda or something from the Coop. He was expelled. I guess it was more of the principle and not the actual object that he allegedly stole. I don't know. It sounds like you feel that the remedy was extreme. Yeah. I'm not under the impression that the people here-although we have the Honor Code-are any less willing to steal or lie or cheat. It's all a matter of getting caught. That's what I think. I've had something stolen from me. You know, once that happens to you here, you pretty much open your eyes and say "Well, this is false." So I think that people are probably less willing to lie, steal and cheat here, because they're afraid of getting caught. Ifthey were at a normal university, they wouldn't have a second thought about doing things like that. Ifyou talk to the students, you'll hear them saying that back in high school we used to cheat on our exams all the time. Just things like that. Now that you've come to W &L, you're a saint, right? Is that what you're telling me? Well, it's not true. The background on that question ­Didyou sense when the remedy was extreme that it had to do with, that there was a racial background to that decision? You think that because he was black that the remedy was extreme? I think so, yes. And I heard of another time where there was a black vice president of some committee. The president for some reason had to leave and this black person was going to be the next president of the committee. For some reason or another, he didn't make it. This was just a story. Somehow, he didn't get to be the president. I wasn't at all surprised. 
But you 're not sure ofthe details ofthat. 
Right. 
44. Do you believe that the honor system is applied in an even-handed way to black and white students? 
I can't answer that question. I don't know anyone who has been tried or anything. 
45. How would you evaluate student publications (i.e. the Ring-tum Phi, the Trident, etc.), the student radio and television stations with regards to opportunities for black students to participate. 
Sure, I think we have a good opportunity to participate. I know people who do the student radio 
station. 
How would you evaluate them with regard to their treatment ofnews about black students? 
That's the question we need to get to. I have a problem with The Spectator. A big problem with that. Right before Christmas they had published a sort of humorous article, the Lord's Prayer. It was entitled Big Daddy's Rap. It was on Ebonics. Ifyou simply read the caption above the translation, it was awful. It was something about "Ifyou find yourself in south central LA, and you're unable to communicate with your captors and they have a gun to your head, you may want to try murmuring these last words to yourself." Then it went through Big Daddy's Rap, the Lord's Prayer. I was very offended by that. At the end of the publication, they had an article about the confederate flag and how people are really giving it a bad name. These far left/right wing groups have picked up the confederate flag and used it as their symbol. That's why people hate it, because skinheads and KKK have used that as their symbol. But really it represents a good thing. We all should embrace the confederate flag and it's ridiculous that some people are against it. It's ridiculous-that magazine, I'm very upset about that. Some ofthe statements I made here were also in there. 
So they 're more fair about their treatment ofblacks? 
Than that paper, yes. My problem with Ring Tum Phi and Trident, in February, which happens to be Black History Month, I got a telephone call from someone who wanted to do an interview. It was very odd that all of a sudden, the Ring Tum Phi and Trident are knocking down my door and they've got so many questions for me. They want to know how my experience is, what is life like for you, very strange that all of a sudden they were interested in me. No other time. I have a problem. Ifyou're gonna be interested in me, be concerned every day throughout the year. Run a story about me in August, not just in February when it's convenient when it's Black History Month should I become an issue to you. I never got a clear answer as to why -well, he said it was Black History Month. 
46. Do you feel that black students at Washington and Lee today have problems that are basically different from, or basically similar to those ofwhites? Please describe in what way you feel they are different or similar. 
Some of the problems that we have are just the normal academic stress. We all go through that. But aside from that, it's different. We have a different experience here. Social problems that other students don't have. Sure, they have social problems but not the same types of ones that we have. 
So academically it's similar and socially it's different. 
*47. Sex Female 
*48. Age? 
*49. Year in college? (Soph. ?) 
*50. Cumulative grade point average [as ofFall 1996]? Over 3.0 
*51. How do you identify yourself in terms of nationality? 
52. 
How do you identify yourself in terms of race? I'm African American. 

53. 
Are there additional comments you wish to do make about any aspects of Washington and Lee? No.