Ballengee interview

[Begin Tape 1, Side 2]
Ballengee: Well, Frank had it all down. It's a critical thing. Although he is so generous
in trying to share with me and some others, John Wilson was the driving force that
brought this about. Bringing him here as president—
Warren: That was my next question.
Ballengee: Well, how would you phrase the question?
Ballengee: Well, my question to you is, I've never been to a board meeting and I'll
probably never go to a board meeting. Who leads a board meeting? Do you as the
rector or does the president? What are the dynamics of that? He was pretty new at that
point, John Wilson, right?
Ballengee: Oh, yes, he was.
Warren: So how did he figure in as a player?
Ballengee: The rector sets the agenda, but the president is the chief executive officer,
the CEO. Now, the way I saw that, in the two New York Stock Exchange companies of
which I was the CEO, I was the chairman, president, and CEO, and then you didn't
have to worry about who's going to set the agenda and present the accomplishments or
the problems or the opportunities or whatever to the board for discussion and decision.

         The president is here every day. The board meets three times a year, usually
here on the campus. During a big campaign, they're often off in other cities, Houston,
Philadelphia, wherever, as they have been. Bob Huntley was a very strong president,
and so is John Wilson, and I'm confident John Elrod, whom I've known since he came
here, will do the same. You need that. He's here every day.

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         The president is, in effect, chairman of the faculty, and the faculty, to me, is so
critical. I've been the chairman of a big hospital and of this university, and in the
bylaws in both cases the board has the final say. Technically that's true, but unless you
had a great medical staff or a great faculty, you're not going to attract any students,
you're not going to have any kind of institution at all.

         You need the highest quality here in teaching, because we're not a great research-
oriented institution, but the relationship of student to teacher to teach a thing, and John
Wilson and every president we've had, I think, has brought that quality of the respect of
the faculty, wanting to strengthen the faculty, and John Wilson did a particularly good
job of that. But he saw immediately this admissions problem, heard from the faculty
and others.

         The board had discussed coeducation a couple times before. I don't know that it
ever came to, I don't think it ever came to a vote, but it had been on the minds of people
because it had been happening at many places that everybody admired. There were
concerns about what it would do to the wonderful women's colleges all around us,
which it didn't hurt at all, in my view, or I think in most people there. And there were
concerns about the alumni support, but in my judgment we gained maybe two people
back for every one we lost who was upset over the coeducation.

         But John really—and still to this day, I haven't attended a board meeting for a
while, but I'm sure that the rector presides, but he turns it over to the president to make
reports, who will delegate to as each of his deans, the dean of the college, the dean of
the law school, and the dean of the commerce school, to report, sometimes though the
academic affairs committee, on admissions and statistics and particular aspects of it.
After all, this is an academic institution. What we're about here is teaching. That's the
critical part. The president still, I guess, he's the chief executive officer, and you turn to
him in every case. Then the board goes home and doesn't come back for months.

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         Now, there are committees. There are some committees where you have a lot of
specialized strength. The investment committee, you've got people from Tom Broadus
to Rupert Johnson that help run great big companies and invest millions for other
people. So when you look at the endowment here, you look at the financial part.

         I've been on lots of what I'd call outside boards and I've administered charitable
institutions, those that you could take a tax deduction if you give them money, and
institutional accounting is different than the P&L statement and a normal business
statement. But both Bob Huntley and John Wilson were superb, sort of their own chief
financial officers, even though we had very good, and still have today, financial
department. They understood the audit function, understood the budget function very
well. I'm sure John Elrod does, too, and had a lot of experience. It's a little different in
an educational institution than in a business, but not that much.
Warren: Going back into that room on that day, which I think is such a dramatic event,
when that decision was made to go with the two-thirds vote, was there any dissension
on that? Did anyone feel that that was not appropriate?
Ballengee: I said Chris Compton and I had agreed on that, and I guess we were sort of
recognized as leaders of the two factions.
Warren: About John Wilson? Did you talk it over with him?
Ballengee: I don't recall that I even—I must have. I know I would have said to him,
"John, if this goes very narrowly, Kopald is going to make a motion to reconsider, and
many of us who voted for coeducation are then going to vote against it, and we're all
going to pledge to get together and work on it." I'm sure I told him that.

         But, you know, you kind of caught the. I had taken a count in my own mind
from the days before, and I was pretty sure that we had enough, and I think I did a
quick mental calculation. I think I knew we could two-thirds, and maybe why I agreed
to that so quickly without any great discussion. I didn't try to bargain Chris to 55
percent or 60 percent. Sixty-six and two-thirds was fine.

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         The question I've always had in mind, suppose he had said three-fourths? Could
I have done that?
Warren: Wouldn't quite have done it, would it?
Ballengee: Well, no, it wouldn't have. It would have taken 18, one-fourth of 24 is 6. It
would have taken 18. But there might have been one more vote out there if we'd had
that, you know. Maybe you needed what they call a whip in the Congress and Senate
stirred up to get one more vote, I don't know.
Warren: It seems to have been a very charged experience.
Ballengee: Oh, it was revolutionary, 200 years plus. That institution was 200 years old
in 1949, and here a few more years, to make such a sea change, change the whole
perception of everybody like that. The students rose up against you. Somebody put
"No Marthas" up on old George, up on top of Washington.

         They only did one really clever thing, which encouraged me. You've heard of
this clever thing that kids at Cal Tech do, change the scoreboard in the Rose Bowl by
some computer magic from long distance and put up some message that Cal Tech is
playing MIT or something. They don't even have a football team. But some of the kids
here somehow found out and got a copy of the inaugural speech John Wilson had made
when he was sworn in as president of Wells College, an all-female college, in which the
thrust of his speech and the drive entirely related to why you don't need coeducation.
They reprinted that and sent it around to all the board. It was done by students.

         I said to John, "You're going to have to explain this. This is your speech, pal. I'm
not touching this." But what it does show is, that we’ve got great kids here. Anybody
bright enough to dig that out. God knows I never would have thought of going back
and looking at what you said that many years ago.
Warren: Isn't that clever.
Ballengee: It was very clever. There were some nasty things said, lots of letters to
answer things. I was so proud of the fact that, hey, I'm not really worried about this

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student body. Even if this doesn't go through, these kids are going to be able to handle
things. It looks all right to me. It's great. A little anecdotal, I know, but it was great
fun.
Warren: Oh, no, that's what I'm after, those anecdotes. So what happened then? Tell
me as it unfolded over the next couple of years.
Ballengee: The whole committee, they went around and studied everything, from
Colgate, which had some problems, and others, whether you put up more lights, do
you put separate dorms. It turned out that the Warner Center was easy to divide in
women's locker room and men's locker room and other things. And you're starting
with a school 1,500 to 1,600, and you only took about 100 the first year, I think, out of
400, maybe more.

         Anyhow, it got to the point pretty quickly where we're still at 1,000 men and 600
young women. If you went way down in the number of young men, then you don't
have a football team or a lacrosse team and other things. So you did it over—the prep
school that my son is the college counselor in did it over twelve years. They started in
kindergarten and every year added to the class, till they got to the full thing.

         So it took a long time to get enough people to have a girls cross-country team or
swimming team, to do all of that, and it just worked splendidly from the beginning.
The number of applications almost immediately overwhelmed everybody of young
men and young women who wanted to be here. And there's no question, I suppose the
women in the first year class come from pioneer stock. They wanted to be in that first
class.
Warren: Tell me more about that.
Ballengee: That is an internal matter of Bill Hartog and the president. The board
doesn't participate a lot of that. You cannot. The decision has got to be made on the
basis of what's best for the university.

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         Now, we have had always had a policy that sons and now daughters of
graduates and residents of Rockbridge County, and I suppose maybe in some minority
situations, do not compete in the regular pool, but it's got to be demonstrable that they
can do the work. I think that's true of almost every college that I know. Even then, you
turn down lots of prominent donors and alumni, the sons and daughters of, and it's
very, very difficult.

         I went through this with Bob Huntley with Robert E. Lee IV's son, Robert E. Lee
V, and how do you do that? Bob went to see him and said, "We're never going to turn
down anybody named Robert E. Lee V, Bob, but this is the wrong place for you to send
this boy," and told him why and explained. That young man went to Hampden-Sydney
and did well. He's a coach, I think, now. I see Bob once in a while, and he tells me how
proud he is of his son. Roger Mudd's son. Bill Brock, who's in the Cabinet, Bill Brock
told me it was the finest thing we did, the right thing.

         But some people get very, very bitter about that, you know, and some of them
have been five generations of Washington and Lee. We exacerbated that part of the
problem when we went coed, because of the number of applicants went way up and the
number of spots are still the same. In fact, we reduced the young men, so it made it
doubly difficult when we did that.

         But the board can't interfere with that. You can write letters. I would not write a
letter about any young person unless I knew him, saw him, interviewed him personally.
It doesn't do me any good to write Bill Hartog and say, "Hey, this kid's got wonderful
parents." He will immediately write me back and say, "Jim, we're not admitting the
parents."

         He used to kid me. In fact, I kid him. What he did, I recommended some people,
and they kidded over there, my batting average was 0 for 17 or something like that.
What Bill was doing was, I think, turning down all kinds of people that I might have
recommended and then that gave him this leeway with everybody else on the board.

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He would say, "Hey, I've already turned down Jim's guy, who is much better qualified
than yours, and he's the rector. I cannot take yours." I said, "You're using me as a ploy.
I want you to stop doing that."

         So I wrote him about a young man that had a two handicap to be his partner at
golf and he could beat everybody else around here, which is one of Hartog's loves, and
he took him right away. So I kidded him then what he was doing. It's a doubly difficult
thing.
Warren: I understand that you couldn't really participate in it, but you did watch.
What did you see happen when those girls started coming here?
Ballengee: Well, I saw the grade point average and the SATs going up. The campus
didn't look a lot different. There had always been girls from Sweet Briar. My son
married a Sweet Briar girl, typical kind of thing that you came to Washington and Lee
and you met a girl from Hollins or Sweet Briar, any number of people on the board and
others that I know, and my daughter-in-law is a Sweet Briar grad. So there were always
girls around. Now they just didn't have to drive down the road to Hollins or over the
mountain to Sweet Briar or Hampden-Sydney or some place.

         I had sort of on the periphery seen it at schools around Philadelphia that I knew
well and watched Bryn Mawr. I live in Bryn Mawr. Harris Walford, who was
president there for a long time, is a good friend of mine. He appointed me on a
committee to look at some of their financial problems which they had were serious and
I belong to their library and Haverford College library, because if you send them a
small contribution, then you get to use the library.

         I had watched it. It started so slowly here in the numbers, you know, socially
changing. Just now getting around to the sororities, for example. There weren't enough
for that to happen. I've been off the board now six years, or it will be six years in
October. I still try to watch it. The place's reputation, if you look at not only the U.S.
News & World Report and all those kind of things, it's got superb, but so many other

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places. And the law school I look at particularly. I just wrote Dean Sullivan about a
couple young men there. One of them is the same one that had the two handicap that
Hartog took. He's been out as a graduate and been working at KPMG, Pete Marwick
[phonetic], as a CPA. Now he's decided he wants to go to law school. He's a fine young
man. I'm proud of him. I don't know why he wants to live here seven years. He was
here four years, and he wants to come back three more and do it.
Warren: I like that expression, a seven-year man.
Ballengee: They use that a lot. Yeah, you hear that a lot. That gives him higher
credentials, greater weight.
Warren: So we're only starting to have seven-year women. We probably only have less
than a handful.
Ballengee: Yeah, of course.
Warren: Were you here for the first graduation that included women?
Ballengee: No. I rarely came to graduation. Graduation has always been a president's
tradition. He is the speaker and he awards the degrees. The board never participated
much, at least in my time that marks graduation.

         I proposed somebody for an honorary degree, and I was on that committee as
long as I was the rector. And then they made me write this citation, which I did, and I
came with him and his wife and went to the dean's dinner the night before, which was
wonderful and delightful. It was a glorious time, and I enjoyed it very much.

         But basically, I did not ever come to graduation. I was here enough, it seemed to
me. That was an academic function, and that belonged to the parents. Of course, I
came to my son's graduation, my son-in-law's graduation. And my daughter, who
graduated from Swarthmore, after three children went back to Bryn Mawr and got a
master's. I just went to that graduation not long ago. Now I'm getting ready to start
with grandchildren. I've done my share of graduations, I guess that's it.

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Warren: You've mentioned your son coming here a couple of times. Tell me about that,
being a parent and having that be a possibility for your child.
Ballengee: I was very pleased, of course. I don't know how much influence—I hope
that he made his own choice, and I think he did. We traveled around and we looked at
Davidson and we looked at a number of schools in Ohio, like Denison. He'd gone to
Haverford school, which was a good prep school in suburban Philadelphia, next door to
Bryn Mawr almost, which they're all day schools now. In earlier time, they had
boarding students. The school my two daughters went to, Baldwin was a preparatory
school for Bryn Mawr and Haverford was a preparatory school for Haverford College.

         He made his own mind that he join Sigma Chi. I guess he's very much like me, I
don't know. I tried to get him to go to law school and told him I'd getting running my
business and start a practice, and I'd bring in the clients and he could do the work. He
had no—and neither of my daughters. I tried that on both my daughters and did not
succeed. My son wanted to be a teacher. He got his master's degree, and he loves being
a college counselor. He's been in three schools. He was out in La Jolla for five years at a
magnificent place called the Bishop School.
Warren: What a nice place to be.
Ballengee: Oh. I visited there as much as I could. It's absolutely lovely.
Warren: I'll bet you did.
Ballengee: But I kept hoping. He had three children I couldn't see that often. I kept
hoping somebody in Atlanta or Boston would offer him a job and he'd get back on the
East Coast, but, lo and behold, Penn Charter [phonetic], which is an old, old another
Quaker founder school, like Bryn Mawr and Haverford and Swarthmore offered him
the same job in Philadelphia, and he moved back to Philadelphia. I regained three
grandchildren there, and it's great.

         I came to all the parents' day things, my daughter's when I could, especially my
daughter at Berkeley at that time. I had a lot of business on the West Coast, so I'd get

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through at L.A., I'd go up and spend a weekend with her in San Francisco or Berkeley
and I went to the functions. That was, I guess, a troubling time for parents, although
most of the real problems at Berkeley had sort of calmed down by that time. But as a
parent, that far away from home and what you read about it, it wasn't like Washington
and Lee or Swarthmore, although at Swarthmore the president of the college dropped
dead in his chair in his office while besieged by a bunch of students in the sixties taking
over his office. So even the Quakers, that can happen. It wasn't just Berkeley. The
sixties were a terrible time. Every place must have been. I'm glad I survived what I
was doing.
Warren: When you came back as a parent, did you find that you were among many
other parents who were alumni?
Ballengee: Oh, yeah. Of course, you can look in the alumni magazine at the end of
each year, their fathers and grandfathers standing behind them in the pictures. I think
Washington and Lee has done a great job in continuing to accept sons, and now
daughters, of graduates.
Warren: I find those photographs very touching when I see them.
Ballengee: They absolutely are. I brought a granddaughter here this summer. She's
going be a rising senior next year. She's a senior in prep school, and she is looking at a
lot of places. I don't think Washington and Lee, living in Philadelphia, if they look at a
small college, they look towards Williams, Amherst, Wesley, in that direction more than
the South. But she's going to look at Emory and Richmond, and that's going to be tough
competition. I don't know, since her father went here and I went here, I don't know
whether she might want to do something on her own. I don't her just to go down there
and see that name Ballengee up on the wall there, "Too much will be expected of me."
Being the oldest child in my family, I suppose that may be a problem for her, and I'm
going to understand.
Warren: And it's not exactly Smith. It's not like she can pretend she's not related.

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Ballengee: No, that's true. But I'm going to understand if she decides to go someplace
else. But I've got eight grandchildren, so I figure I may get lucky and one or two of
them I don’t know.
Warren: My guess is, at the rate you're going, you'll be around for great-grandchildren,
too.
Ballengee: Oh, I don't know. I hope. I'm seventy-three now, and I don't know. I've
had thirty-some years of rheumatoid arthritis, which I've had lots of orthopedic
operations and replacements. Even Frank will tell you, the way I used to walk, I've had
remarkable improvement, sort of remission and doing well.
Warren: That's great.
Ballengee: It is great.
Warren: That's wonderful. Well, I know you've had a long drive today, and I know
you're probably ready to relax, and I feel like I've gotten wonderful information from
you. I can already see it on the page. Is there anything more you'd like to talk about?
Ballengee: No. If I think of anything, I'll drop you a note. I've always believed in the
theory that John Wilson always proclaimed, that life is like a relay race. Our predecessors
carried the baton, and now it's handed it off to this generation. I strongly believe this. I
probably first heard Dr. Gaines say this, starting with the importance of George Washington's
gift to every student here. This place was here and ready for me when I came here in 1946, with
the wonderful buildings, this beautiful, incomparable setting of the front campus and the
colonnade, to walk down that every day, just absolutely inspiring and gorgeous, and a great
faculty and a great program, because people worked and gave money and gave of their time and
their talent and their treasure and all, and I did nothing. I just came here as a hillbilly kid out of
West Virginia, matured a little bit because I'd been overseas in the infantry. But that is the clear
obligation for me and those in my generation to do the same thing for the next generation and the
next generation. Every generation owes its dues, and sometimes that's difficult to get across to
people.

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         I know it's strange. My wife and I have had this discussion. I think we ought to
be giving more money to this little college in West Virginia we both went to. It's where
we met. She's a strong advocate that it's wasted, that we ought to just keep giving it to
Washington and Lee, that you know you're going to get more bang for the buck here,
this is going to do more good, it's going to help. I said, "The poor little kid struggling in
the mountains over there, they're never going to get anyplace."

         She might be right about it. In fact, we have done substantially more here than
we have for that place, and I suppose it'll continue, because for a while I thought it was
going to fail, I thought it was going to fold up, and nobody wants to start pouring
money into a ship that's on its way sinking. I see it as more of a moral dilemma than
she does. She's pretty clear-eyed about this, and her vision of what's going to be useful
and helpful and where it's going to do some good is that this is the place, and she may
be right.
Warren: You have a pretty sound investment here.
Ballengee: There's no question about that. We've already got a big investment of son
and son-in-law and all our years of friendship. In recent years, we've taken every trip,
many of the trips the alumni college thing, which has cemented things over again. Like
I'm getting ready to go early next month with Rob to Jerusalem, Petra, Iman, and even
Damascus, and then we're going to England in the summer.
Warren: Oh, may I carry your bags? I would love to go that trip.
Ballengee: Our oldest daughter, the Berkeley one, married an Englishman that lives
down in Somerset near Bath, and we have two grandchildren there that have wonderful
English accents, truly delightful. So we're going to even stay some time and spend a
week with them.
Warren: Oh, that's wonderful.
Ballengee: It will be great, I think. I first went there in 1944 on the QE-1 with 14,999
other troops, a little different than sailing on the QE-2 today. With all their problems

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and mad cow disease now and everything else, everything that my life centered on that
I like, literature and law and language, all came from what you could probably call the
mother country to many of us here, I guess. I've been there many times since more than
fifty years now.
Warren: My husband and I keep going back, and every time we say, "We really ought
to go somewhere else." But why? We love it there so much.
Ballengee: Well, I can't think of anything else. It's obvious, you go over and look at
that benefactors wall and see the people that have [unclear]—Ernie Williams and Gerry
Lenfest, the Lewises. They're so wonderful. Both of them served on the board with me,
never once ever said to me, "Jim, you ought to do this for us because of what we've
done." I tried never to forget. They were our largest benefactors for many years, and
now I've paced a little, but I think that's important.
Warren: It's a wonderful family here, and I'm really getting a lot of pleasure in getting
to meet these people.
Ballengee: Well, I think the integrity, too. The admissions process is such that Bill
Hartog and his group, maybe with some influence from the president and the dean and
others, really make those decisions.

         I know once I was in a difficult thing. There was a young man whom I had never
met, but I knew his father well. His father had been president of the American Bar
Association, as a young man had worked up through the ranks in Tampa, Florida. He
was a real overachiever, and so was the boy's mother. The boy I guess kind of rebelled
against that, and in a prep school, out of 220 kids, he was like 210. But his SATs were
sky-high, I mean way up there, like 1400 or something like that. His father was known
to everybody, a couple of our leading trustees in Atlanta. Lewis Powell knew me well,
called me. I'd worked with him in the junior bar when we both started out.

         Bill resisted this from the beginning, saying, "We're not a remedial institution.
We're not here to straighten that kid out, Jim."

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         Then I remembered Dean Gilliam's favorite thing—the thicker the file, the thicker
the boy. That meant the more letters that came in from the board is a part of it. The
father flew up here, had a terrible flight, got the plane canceled, finally got in in the
middle of the night, came over, and Bill Hartog wouldn't even see him, put him off to
somebody else to interview him. He's a very important guy in Tampa.

         John Robins, who's on the board now, I told you had this same experience. I
don't think the father will speak to him. I've never heard from the father since then.
We turned the kid down flat. I think Bill Hartog was exactly right. I don't think he's
turned out to be anything.

         There's some of them—I don't know how he does it. My son, who went to
Washington and Lee, is a college counselor. He had a young man that we turned down
flat and Davidson took, and I think my son would agree, we should have turned him
down, even though he's now president of the student body at Davidson, probably a
great kid. The father was atrocious in writing letters criticizing [unclear] and
everything. Maybe Davidson takes more at-risk cases or something, I don't know. It's a
whole mystery to me how you've got three times as many fully qualified people that
you can handle, how you pick.
Warren: It's not an enviable job.
Ballengee: He doesn't want well-rounded kids. He wants a well-rounded class. So he
needs a couple cello players and he needs a great lacrosse player and he needs an editor
for the newspaper and he needs a few other things to try to get the classes well
rounded.

         A big problem now—I don't know whether you've heard this, but this is between
us and the board, is this question of whether you should have a sex-blind admissions
policy or stay at this 1,000 and 600. My friend Pat McPherson, who's president of Bryn
Mawr College now, said to me, "Jim, you should have done that a long time ago, and
you'll have more women than men."

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         I said, "That's what everybody's afraid of."
Warren: What do you think on that subject?
Ballengee: I haven't studied any of the—it all came up since. We were pretty clear in
the beginning how gradually we were going to do this and what we were going to
work up to, and we're at that point, 600 and 1,000. That was the objective. It's maybe
like Frank's Zen Buddhism or whatever he was quoting, "You achieve success when
you arrive where you're supposed to arrive, whether you realize it or not," and we're at
that point.

         There are some people on the board that think it ought to just stay that way, I
know, and I know they've voiced it to me that they're going to be very happy if that
changes. I think if you change it, I don't think it would end up much different. I think
Bill Hartog can control that. He can do it the way he—these days, I watch this closely,
because my son being a college counselor, what he does with all of his
recommendations and how he goes to these meetings with Hartog and others. They
have the really good prep school for college counselors and really good colleges. I think
they get off and play golf and things, to tell you the truth. Now, they have a big thing.
They meet up in New England and discuss these things between themselves.

         But I think these days, with the increase every place in the early decisions, Bill
has his class fixed with the early decision, and then he's got his wait list at the end. It
looks like a science better than booking hotel rooms and airplane tickets. How do you
come out never too many and never too few? If you have too many, you don't have
housing for them. If you have too few, you ruin your budget. You've got to come out
right where you want to come out every place. It's a very tough thing.

         I probably would be very conservative and hold on to the way it's—because it's
going so well. You don't kick around with great success here.
Warren: Yeah, but they tinkered ten years ago. You tinkered ten years ago.

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Ballengee: Exactly right. Exactly right. You put your finger right on the point. You
get older and you get much more conservative. I can remember when I was young I
would push what money I had in the middle of the table, and if the deal fell apart, I
knew I had lots of years to make it up when something came along later. But you don't
have that later. You're exactly right about that, probably would. But I don't know that
going to sex-blind admission—I think Bill can do that now, except I guess the board has
said to him, "We want 600 women and 1,000 men." Mostly what the board has said to
him, "We don't want more than 1,600. We're going to keep this place small and keep
the student/teacher ratio." You can balance a budget easily by taking 2,000. You could
increase the class size a little bigger without adding any faculty, with adding any chairs
in many of those classrooms or any other facilities. Some dormitory rooms or
something you might need or housing, and you could really enhance your budget. I've
seen some schools do it that way. But the board was firm. Part of the secret of this
place, the charm of the place is the size. One time I can remember we said we want
1,600. The 1,601 student that comes here this next year lives with the Hartogs; the 1,602
lives in Lee House with the president.
Warren: That's great. Thank you so much.
Ballengee: I've ran long enough. Thank you, Mame.
[End of Interview]

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