Lord interview [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Warren: So the school was back to being Washington and Lee. Let's face it, Norm. You settled down for virtually the rest of your life there. How did that come to be? Lord: Well, I didn't even ask for a contract. I guess they just assumed I was going to come back, and I kept coming back. [Laughter] Warren: It really is a very casual place once you get your foot in the door, isn't it? Lord: Yeah. Well, I worked there for forty-three years, and I never missed a day. I always looked forward to going to school, going to work. I was never late. Warren: I find that, as I'm going to work, I often say, "Well, I'm going to school. Oops-that's right, it's going to work." It gets confusing, in my brain. It's so much 17 fun to work there. I shouldn't say that. Maybe they'll stop paying me if they know how much fun I'm having. Well, okay. So you are now a member of the faculty. You were witness to some very interesting events that I don't know much about, I've just heard innuendoes about. That's not the right word to use. I'm just now learning about them, is what I'm trying to say. One of them, I think, obviously had very much to do with the athletic department: the build-up and then the demise of the football program. Tell me about that. Lord: Well, they hired a football coach who was a tremendous recruiter. Warren: And who was that? Lord: Coach Art Lewis. He came from West Virginia. I guess he came from the coal mines of Ohio. His wife came from Ohio. Well, anyhow, he came from either Ohio or West Virginia. He was a navy officer, and they asked him would he coach football, and he said yes. He needed a staff, so they authorized a staff for him, and he recruited people. He had tremendous success there as a coach, and they were beating teams that they hadn't normally beat. Then it was time for him-because he always got better offers at other schools-so he went to Mississippi State and coached down there. Then they hired George Barclay [phonetic] from North Carolina to come up there, and George Barkley took over from Art Lewis. And, of course, he brought in his own staff, so it meant upheaval. That's the difficult part of being in the coaching business, because you appear, and next year you're gone, or next three years, you're gone. But George Barclay turned the team into a very good team, and then they had a cheating scandal. Unfortunately, the blame of this terrible thing was put upon the football team. Now, you're going to hear some people say, "That's not true, Norm." But there were other people involved other than football players. Of course, being on 18 the honor system, every student that was involved had to leave. Many of them were football players, but there were some basketball, there were some plain students that had to leave, and it was a sad place. Dr. Gaines was right on the verge of eliminating football, but then he had second thoughts not to eliminate it, because we had contracts with all these other universities to play. So they decided to abandon scholarship football, and there was a lot of dissent from the alumni. They had seen Washington and Lee be successful pre-World War II, and they had that whole General spirit. The Washington and Lee Swing was in their bones. Warren: Tell me what you mean by that. Lord: They were Washington and Lee all the way, and they just couldn't believe that Washington and Lee would not have a football team. "We're not going to give up football, but we'll have a team." But they wouldn't win any, so they decided- we had contracts with University of Pennsylvania, University of Tennessee, university of all these schools. So now the athletic director, who was Cap'n Dick Smith, he had to write those people and tell them what happened. They said, "It would be criminal for us to play you, but we will play you if you want us to. If you can't get a game, we will play you." Well, they had no trouble at all, because they had common opponents, like we had Penn and Tennessee and all these, so each of the schools that were on our schedule would write Penn or Tennessee, or wherever-I don't know what the schedule was-but each one of those schools that had a contract with us said, "Yeah, we'll be glad to let you out of the contract. We won't come down there. If we're coming, you won't have to come up here." So what they did, they matched up the teams, so they played. Warren: So did W&L still have a football team? Lord: W&L did have a football team. Fortunately-and he's written up in history, but I'll repeat it once more-they had no coach, because all the coaches quit. The 19 coaches didn't want to coach. They sort of were upset, too. So they said, "Well, we'll get a job." And every one of them got jobs. One of them went to the professional league in Canada. I don't know where they all went, but every one of them did get a job. So now we've got a football team, amateurs who haven't played football very much, and we've got freshmen coming in who don't know whether they want to play on a team that's not going to win. So they recruited freshmen, and they had some old diehards. Dr. Gaines told the ones that were not involved in the cheating scandal, "Your scholarship is in effect, and you will be honored with that financial help until you graduate." So that was a good promise. Now we've got the remnants of a good team, and we've got inflow of freshmen, and then we've got volunteers who didn't play before, who came out and played, and we now don't have a coach. We had a coach, a friend from VMI, who was an insurance salesman, but also coached at VMI. He said to Cy Twombly, "You know, I'll be glad to help you out if you want me to." So he volunteered. They paid him, and he was the fill-in coach. Warren: Who was that? Lord: Williams. Coach Williams. Boyd Williams. Coach Boyd Williams. He's still living and he's still in Lexington, and he's one hundred percent Washington and Lee. He's probably the most loyal fan in the city of Lexington. Warren: Oh, that's interesting. I'll have to talk to him. Well, take me back to that cheating scandal. What happened? Lord: Well, here's what happened. The guy that did it-and, I'm not going to mention his name- Warren: That's fine. 20 Lord: But see, they should have blamed him for the whole thing. He convinced the night watchman to let him in the building where the exams were mimeographed. In those days, they said "mimeographed." He goes in, and the night watchman- the night watchman was sort of-he didn't understand what he was doing when he let him in. He didn't know that the guy that was going to go in there was going to steal the exams. So he got the exams and then he sold them. He sold the exams to other students. Of course, in the end, it all came out. They found out who, because you know how word gets around. I never felt so sorry in my life for this one guy. I won't mention his name, but he had graduated. He was going to get his degree in May of 1947. Somebody turned him in for not turning in somebody. He not only didn't get his degree from Washington and Lee-I think maybe he may have gotten it later- he lost his commission from the navy, because he was a navy ROTC person. I don't know whether he's ever come back to Washington and Lee or not, but he was a fine kid. You always get some innocent people, but he was guilty from the standpoint of the code, the honor code. Warren: The honor system is real serious at Washington and Lee. Lord: Oh, they are. Oh, yes. Warren: Did the athletes think that they didn't have to be part of that system, or did they think because they were on scholarships, they were exempt from the honor system? Lord: There are a lot of smart football players, and then there are a lot of players, I'm not saying they're dumb, they're not educated. They didn't get the background to be able to come to W&L, but they came. They may have come from schools which gave them high grades, and they got in. In those days, remember, they didn't have the college boards. You came on what your high school report card said. So they came in with this stuff. And many of them-I don't know one, and some of those 21 that throughout, ended up being doctors and lawyers. So what I'm saying is, it was just an unfortunate thing which they got sucked into. In other words, if they had gone ahead and flunked some subjects, they would still have graduated from Washington and Lee. Some people say, "They wouldn't have graduated from Washington and Lee. They were too dumb." Well, that's not true. If you want me to, sometime, I'll go down the list, and we'll get a list of those guys, and we'll see Doctor So-and-so, and Attorney So-and-so, and Judge So-and-so. Warren: How many people were involved, do you think? Lord: I tell you, I don't know the number. I don't know, but everybody was so down. But Dr. Gaines was there, and he gave a wonderful speech to the student body, and said, "We're going to have a football team. We're going to have The Washington and Lee Swing, and we're going to continue athletics. We're going to emphasize this," and so on. Everybody applauded him, and we went on and had the season. The next year, we hired a coach from northern Virginia by the name of-no, we've got to go back one. We hired a coach who was a great football player there, Coach Bill Chipley. Warren: Chipley? Lord: Chipley. C-H-1-P-L-E-Y. He was one of the great players we had there. He would have made it had they let him stay on one more year, but the other people were complaining so much. I don't know what kind of contract he had, whether he had a two-year contract, but poor Bill Chipley was asked to resign. He resigned, and then they hired a gentleman by the name of Lee McLaughlin, whom you've heard about, and who was a wonderful person, and a great "person" person. He knew how to coach persons, not coach football. He got them motivated, and he got a good staff, one of whom was Coach Leslie, and Coach Harrington, who played at W &L. Coach Leslie played baseball. He surrounded himself with some motivators and he 22 didn't win many the first year. I don't think he won but one, or two. But then he started winning, and then in three or four years, he was the coach of the year for Division Three athletics, football. Warren: He certainly was well thought of. Lord: Yes, he was. Warren: He was dead by the time I moved to Lexington, but people still talk about Coach McLaughlin, and sort of bow their heads. Lord: Yes, yes. Unfortunately, he met an untimely death. He had a great camp. You knew that he was electrocuted? Warren: Yes, yes. I actually live right around the corner from the camp. A couple of other things. You've made mention of The Swing. Tell me what the W&L Swing means in the athletic program. Lord: Well, I don't know the motive, but I can hum the tune. "When Washington and Lee men fall in line, We're going to win again another time" [Laughter] Go ahead. Warren: No, you go ahead. It's great! You're great. [Laughter] I haven't been to a football game yet, so I haven't heard them sing it. So did people sing it with great vigor? Lord: Oh, yeah, yeah. We all stand up. Warren: Tell me about it. Lord: They stand up. They know they're supposed to stand up. Now, some of these young guys don't, but ordinarily you stand up. [Laughter] Warren: So it's sort of like the national anthem? Lord: Right, right. It was our anthem, our fight song. [Laughter] Warren: Tell me about it. Lord: Well, there's been so much written on it. Warren: There's a lot of emotion caught up with the fight anthem. 23 Lord: Oh, yeah. Warren: Tell me about that. Lord: Well, I don't know who generated it. All I know is, that tune is played more than any other fight song in the United States, because so many high schools have stolen it. Warren: When Frank first started talking about it, I said, "Frank, I have no idea what you're talking about." He said, "As soon as you hear it, you'll know. You'll know exactly." As soon as I heard it, I said, "That's The W&L Swing? I've heard that all my life." He said, "Yeah, exactly." Lord: On March the 4th, you get up at seven o'clock and be down on the field, I'll be there. We're going to have the Washington and Lee recording and then I'm going to send them on a run. Warren: I saw that. [Laughter] Everybody's waiting for you, too. They're expecting you. Lord: Excuse me for being so emotional. Warren: I love that you're being so emotional. I've just got to share this with you. I have the cassette that they put together of it, and I get all choked up now when I hear it. I've only been there since November, and I get all choked up. I mean, this is crazy, but it's that kind of song. Lord: Yeah, yeah. That's right. Warren: Why is that, do you think? Lord: I don't know. It really is. Whenever I go, I sing it. When I go to a game, and they don't have the band there, I recruit the crowd, and we sing it. I can't believe it! [Laughter] And I'm a blue hen! I'm a blue hen from Delaware. Warren: Well, does everybody know the words? Lord: Well, yeah. If they're W&L guys, they do. 24 Warren: And do I understand that the words aren't always quite the same, that sometimes they get modified? Lord: Yeah, I guess so. But not as a rule. Warren: Because Frank says the "Sweet Briar" line is not always the same. Lord: Yeah, yeah, I know. I know what you're talking about. Warren: Well, I don't. Lord: They ham it up. Warren: Okay. Let's go off on another tangent, and this may be a total tangent that doesn't go anywhere. Were you aware, when Dean Leyburn arrived, of what he was ti:ying to do with the school? Lord: Well, there was some objection to him, because they knew that he was going to make it tougher to get in, tougher entrance standards. But don't ever say that he was not for athletics. He was interested. He would go to games. He's the one that instituted college boards. Warren: Really? Lord: It was going to make it tougher to get in, and it is tougher. Of course, the other thing that there was some discussion and dissent about was when we went co- ed. They thought that that was going to reduce the chances of getting athletes in, because instead of getting all men in, they had the women coming in, yet the school didn't increase in size. If it had doubled in size, gone from 1,250 to 2,500, just like that, then the transition wouldn't have been as abrupt. But when you're getting this many men, and from that many men, you've got a better chance of getting three good people than just one good person. So then when the circle of bodies goes to this size, then it makes it tougher, see. And then the percentage now, I guess, is going to be what, two-thirds, or- Warren: It's sixty-forty, now. Lord: Sixty-forty. They've adapted themselves to that. 25 Warren: Well, a few champion women have come in. Lord: Oh, yeah. Warren: Tell me about that. Lord: I was one of the few in the whole athletic department who said, "Don't bring that stuff up to me, because I am not against women entering Washington and Lee." I said, "I have six sisters, I have two daughters, I have grandchildren, and I'm not against women." And they have done real well. I'm just proud of them. Warren: Were you still there when it went co-ed? Lord: I had two classes. Now, when did it start? Warren: '85. Lord: '85. Yeah, I had two years, two years of women. Warren: And what was that like when they first arrived on campus? Lord: I treated them exactly like I treated my students. I mean, men students. I had a lot of people join my class. Warren: What did you have to do to modify, for having women there? Lord: Well, the contact sports, of course, would be a little different. I had a granddaughter who wanted to come to W&L, but her grades weren't good enough. Her college boards were good enough, but she participated in so many different things in high school that her ranking in class was down. They play soccer. They can't play football, but there are some girls in the United States that play football. And there are even wrestlers. But to get to the question, the sports that the girls play, I'm one hundred percent for them. Like volleyball, that's a wonderful thing for girls. Swimming, look how good they're doing. Track, they rank people. Basketball-it's going to be a little while before they get up in basketball, doing as well as they are in the other sports. And softball. Warren: What had to happen in the gymnasium? 26 Lord: They had to build that new gymnasium, that was one of the things. They built the new gymnasium with the intent of having women. Warren: Really? The Warner Center was related to the coming of women? Lord: Yes. Well, when they first built it, there weren't any women there, when they first started to build it. But then they knew they had to have locker rooms, shower facilities for the women. President Cole, when he was here, had an idea-I don't know the politics, so I don't know the decision of why it was-but he wanted to build another school, and he put it up on Liberty Hall, and that would be the women, and the men would be down here. Warren: Really? Lord: Yes. Of course, he's dead now, he can't verify it, but I was a buddy of President Cole. We used to play handball all the time, and he would talk about that. He'd say, "What do you think about that, Norm?" I'd say, "I think that's a great idea," and things like that. But there were some board of trustees that didn't even want women, period, and they were influential. So he saw that he was going to have a very difficult fight. So he got an opportunity to get a big job in a library-do we have some organization in Washington? It's a library, it's not a government-run thing, it's some big philanthropy-type something that's run- Warren: And that's where he went? Lord: Yeah, he went there, and he stayed there until he died. Warren: I'm sure Frank would know. Lord: Oh, yeah. Frank would know. Oh, yeah, he'll know. Frank used to play handball, too, with him, and with me. 27 Warren: Okay, now. We've talked about the coming of women. Another thing that I suspect that you probably were witness to was the arrival of black students at Washington and Lee. Lord: No problem. Well, I think when they first came, there was no problem. It's only after more of them came, and they were tainted with an attitude that they weren't getting enough, quick enough. And I had to grab two of them by the neck- and I'd be fired today if I did it-when they dedicated the Washington and Lee gymnasium. University of Virginia versus Washington and Lee, in basketball. I can't remember the year. They played the national anthem, and everybody stood up except these three black guys. And I was so mad, I almost went down immediately, and was going to snatch 'em up, but I didn't. [Laughter] And as soon as the last note was sounded, I ran down to the people, to those guys, and I grabbed them by the neck, and I said, "What in the heck is going on here?" And they turned around. They knew me. They didn't offer any resistance at all. They said, "Well, we have our rights." I said, "Yes, you do have your rights, but you don't have the right of not being courteous. You have to have courtesy, no matter where you go. You should have stood up. It's too late now to stand up, but I want to see you in my office tomorrow." There were three of them, and two of them came. They never held it against me. Well, there are a lot of people that don't really know. And I hate to say this about Washington and Lee students, but I remember on my track team, when we had ROTC. The ROTC would march; they'd have a parade once a week. It was on Thursdays. I had practice out there, and they had a band. We had a band, a little band. The flag went by, and they played the national anthem. I had students who didn't know enough to get up. And, boy, I would get over and just tell them, I'd say, 28 "Hey, you're either going to have to stand up on Thursdays, or you won't be on my track and field team." They'd say, "Oh, we didn't think it made any difference. It was just so informal." It wasn't a big ROTC detachment. It wasn't like VMI having a whole football field full. It was just, say, thirty of them, marching. And they weren't that too good of marchers, either. So I can understand why they felt that way, but I [unclear]. They respected me. Warren: They do respect you. Everyone-when your name comes up-I don't know anybody who gets the respect that you do. Except maybe Dean Leyburn. You two were both- Lord: Oh, man, he was great. Warren: That's good company to be keeping. Lord: Oh, he was great. But he came to every athletic contest. Warren: Okay, wait a minute. I want to hear more about the arrival of black students. Were they good athletes? Lord: Oh, those three, I don't know. Warren: I don't necessarily mean those three. I'm talking about in general. Why would a black student choose to come to Washington and Lee? Let's face it, it's not a particularly liberal or open-minded place. Lord: Right. And it's not a muscle factory. Warren: Right. So why would a black student choose to come to Washington and Lee? Lord: Well, first of all, the notoriety of a degree, the importance. To answer your question, I had a black student on my track and field team, and I've seen other black students participate, and they were respected. The coach was completely unbiased. In fact, the Washington Post came down when we had black students, and he was interviewing every coach that had a black student in the whole Southeast, all over 29 the South. There was some kind of a survey. And he asked me, he said, "How do you feel about it?" I said, "No problem. I've been dealing with them for years and years in high school. I was an official at a track meet. I'd start them, and I'd treat them just like everybody else." I told him that I was strict with them, and everything. And then I had this athlete, and he was a long-jumper. This interviewer said, "Coach, do you mean to tell me that you're not a little bit biased?" I said, "Let me tell you something. A coach is the most unbiased person alive. He will not let someone better than what he's got sit on the bench. He's going to take the person who is the most qualified, and have him participate, play." He said, "What do you mean?'' I said, "All right. I've got a long-jumper. He jumps a quarter of an inch further than somebody else. He's going to get a chance to participate more." You're allowed to enter three, you see. "So if he's in the top three, and his distances-" He said, "Well, you sold me there. I wonder if the rest of them are going to be like that?" I said, "Absolutely. If he can shoot a basket and it goes through more than the guy who's white, he's going to be playing." Well, look at the leagues now. [Laughter] Warren: I'm very intrigued. I'm looking forward to interviewing some of those early black students, because I think they must have been real pioneers, just like the young women who were the first women to come there. Lord: Well, I think so. Warren: Let's face it, the place has a lot of tradition, and they were bucking tradition. 30 Lord: Yeah, I think so. I hope it works that way. Well, I don't have an ounce of- what do you call it?-what's the word-against them. I'm not- Warren: Prejudice. Lord: -prejudiced. I don't have an ounce of being prejudiced, against anybody, if they were doing right. Now, if they start doing something that is offbeat, then I'm going to step into it. Warren: You'll give everybody a hard time, is what you're trying to say. Lord: No, I really do. When we get to talking about physical education and some of that stuff, I'll get into it more. Warren: Well, let's get into it. Let's talk about that. Lord: Well, I have been very tough on people who thought they'd get by by doing less because of attitude, or because of inability to do it, or because of wrong philosophy. They don't think it's important that you should have to pay to come and work out and take physical activity. I got a letter-would you like me to send you some of those letters? Warren: Absolutely. Lord: You would? Warren: Yes, yes. Lord: Okay. I got some letters. Warren: Well, tell me about the letter. You were starting to tell me. Lord: I have gone up to a person, and I'll put my hand on his shoulders-which, I guess, now, I don't think they'd say anything to me about it-but I put my hand on his shoulders, and I get real close to him, and I'm going to say, "You're never going to make it. Just because you are in a great fraternity and just because you're taking a wonderful course, and all that, you won't make it unless you change your attitude." Everything is attitude, and discipline, and struggle, and staying up late, and getting 31 this book report in, instead of saying, "I'll do it tomorrow." You've got to discipline yourself. I've done this a lot. I had this black girl in my class, and she was cutting class all the time. She always cut on a day when we had something tough, a test or something, a physical test. So I saw her one day, and I called her aside, and talked father-to-daughter to her, and I said, "You know, if you miss another class, there's no way I can pass you. I'll have to fail you." Do you know, the very next class, she missed it. It was mid- semester, and she had already missed as many as she was supposed to miss. We had a rule that if you miss six classes, you can't pass-I think seven. Six you can miss, if you make up the work. Seven, no matter what you do, you can't miss. She missed seven classes, after I told her that she couldn't miss any more. So I immediately called, I guess it was Dean John, dean of students. I said, "You've got some great people here in the school. Boy, you deserve a medal." He said, "What do you mean, Norm?" I was being facetious. I said, "Well, you recruited a black girl who's hopeless. After I told her that if she cuts one more class, I'm going to flunk her, now I'm going to have to flunk her." I can't remember her name now, but I told Lew John -do you know him? Warren: Yes. Lord: I told him, and he said, "Well, let me talk to her, or I'll have her counselor talk to her, and have her come talk to you." I said, "Okay. If she had an excuse, a real good excuse, and this and that. I don't want to be a guy who is absolute. I want to help her if I can." So she came, and she said, "I overslept." I said, "Well, don't you have an alarm clock?" [Laughter] She said, "Yes, but I didn't set it." 32 I said, "Well, let me tell you something. You've got to set the clock, or you've got to have somebody-especially in a case as badly as the situation in which you put yourself was, you've got to have somebody wake you up, if you know you've got to be there." So she said, "Well, you're right there." I said, "I'll tell you what. I am going to give you a chance to make that seventh one up, so you pass. You've got to also agree to also make the other six up. Will you agree to that?" She said, "That's good. Thank you, Coach." I said, "You tell me when you want to make them up." We sat down and she made them up. I said, "We're going to come. I'm going to be here at such and such a time." And there were always things to make up, see. And it was physical. It was a proficiency test. It was physical stuff, it wasn't written stuff. So she would be doing the stuff. And then right in the middle of it, she says, "Is this necessary?" [Laughter] I said, "You bet it is. It is necessary." And she passed. Warren: That's great. She's very lucky. She's very lucky. Well, you sure have a lot of respect from your former students. One thing else I wanted to ask you about. One of the things that I see a lot of at Washington and Lee is some heavy-duty partying. Now, doesn't that make life difficult for an athletic teacher? I mean, a body can only take so much. Lord: It's a sign of immaturity, that's all it is. That, plus purposely ignoring the bad effects. Why would anybody want to take pot or smoke drugs, or why would they want to drink just to get drunk? I used to tell them-but I was tough on my students. I didn't let them drink or smoke. If they did, they were off the team. They said, "Hey, you're living in the wrong era." Hey, go tell me. Some of my own 33 colleagues, they say, "Guy, you're living in a dream world, now. Times aren't like that." I said, "They are to me." Maybe that's wrong, but- Warren: They drink a lot at Washington and Lee. There's a lot of alcohol consumed. How can you maintain the team? Lord: First of all, you'd better get the dean to have a seminar with the coaches. See, one of the things about sports is that it's a leak-down from-look at Nebraska versus Florida in football. This guy was a criminal, and they let him play on the team, and because he played on the team, they won. That coach must be a wonderful person. He is a wonderful person, I can tell by looking at him. He's a devout Christian. But either an alumni got to him, or somebody else said, "Why don't you give him a break and let him play?" So the guy played. I can't even think of his name now. He played, and now I hear he's in more trouble. It's discipline, that's what it is. But you can't go back on it, even though I went back on that seventh inning thing, seven-absence thing. Of course, it depends on the situation. Rape or drugs or some of that stuff, I don't think it should be a part of athletics. But maybe the answer is to have an Alcoholics Anonymous or something like that. I don't mean Alcoholics Anonymous, but Athletes Anonymous or something. Warren: There's a good idea. Lord: Just to get in and say, "Now, look," and prove to them physiologically what happens to a drop of alcohol when it goes in. You can prove that it's not good for you, although now it's good to drink red wine. But you don't even know there, because research isn't honest anymore. You get people who cheat on it. How in the heck can you look at yourself in the mirror, being a doctor of whatever it is, and he did research, and then skewed it, so that, you know-boy, that's terrible. 34 Warren: We're coming up to the end of this tape, and we can certainly pop in another one, if we want. Lord: I thought you were going to ask me more on the other stuff. Warren: Well, let's talk about the other stuff. What do you want to talk about? Lord: Some of the things that were very popular that now are going by the wayside. Warren: I would love to. All right, let's pop in another tape, and get those. Lord: We'll call it, "Going By the Wayside."