ELIZABETH MILES MITZLAFF October 27, 1996 — Mame Warren, Interviewer Warren: This is Mame Warren. Today is the 27th of October, 1996. I'm in Goshen, Kentucky, with Elizabeth Miles Mitzlaff. You are one of our pioneer women at Washington and Lee, but how did you choose to come to Washington and Lee? Mitzlaff: Well, during when all the juniors and seniors in high school were making the rounds to all the colleges, we kind of decided, my mom and dad and I, to make the Virginia trip. So we went to the Virginia schools and we looked at Sweet Briar and Hollins and UVA, and I think I was mostly interested in UVA. As the end of the day was ending up and we were getting ready to make our way to the hotel, Dad said, "Well, why don't we swing by Lexington, Virginia, because we're not very far." I said, "Oh, Dad, I don't want to look at W&L, I'm just not interested in it. Next year, my year, will be the first class of girls and I'm just not interested in that at all." So he talked me into it, he said, "Well, just do it for me, for my sake, so I can go back and see my alma mater." So I said, "Well, all right." We were staying in a hotel right near Lexington, and so we went and it was probably towards the evening, so W&L was all lit up, it looked so pretty at night. 1 I was swimmer here in Louisville, and W&L was having a swim meet that night, so we could hear all the cheers coming from the gymnasium. So Dad said, "Let me go show you the gymnasium and let's go check it out and see what's going on and you can see what all the team spirit is like." So we went, and W&L won the swim meet, so everybody was all pumped up. After the swim met was over, my parents and I walked down to the pool deck, because we saw a senior, the team captain, was from Louisville, named Bobby Pearson. So I was familiar with who he was and with his family, and so we talked to him for a little bit. He introduced us to the swim coach, so I started talking to the swim coach and was really interested in it. It turned out that we spent the night there in Lexington, and the next morning we decided to kind of walk around campus a little, and we ran into my old next-door neighbor who was also a senior there, named Bill Decamp. So Bill and his girlfriend, who I think was at Hollins, and is now his wife, they took us to lunch. So that was pretty much our Virginia weekend. The whole way home I was firing off questions to Dad and asking him all about it. I got home and started thinking more and more about it, and Dad was funny, because he didn't want to pressure me, but he was so thrilled that I was considering it now. So as he would come into the same room that I was in, he would start singing the W&L alma mater and saying, "No pressure, no pressure whatsoever," and then start singing it on his way back out of the room. So it was interesting. I mean, I had no interest in it until I got to the campus, and I think I was looking at the Virginia schools, maybe some of the North Carolina schools. My dad had gone there, it was all male, so it just hadn't even come up for discussion. To tell you the truth, I think my dad was kind of leaning against the idea of coeducation just because it was so near and dear to his heart, all his friendships that he had made with his friends there, and the way he remembered W&L was a close-knit group of 2 gentlemen. I think that as soon as I started looking at it, he started realizing that there was a need for coeducation there, so he switched. He switched his tune pretty quickly. Warren: That was my next question, was whether you knew what his attitude had been during the whole discussion. Had it been something that he talked about when coeducation was under discussion? Mitzlaff: Not a whole lot, not to me, anyway, that I know of, that I remember. I don't think he talked about it much, as far as being against it or being for it, and I don't know if that's just because I never mentioned that I was interested in it and never asked him any questions about it. I think that swimming had been such a large part of my life throughout high school, I think from practically as long as I can remember, swimming was just everything to me. I had gone through some hurdles in high school, a couple of setbacks, and I had to sit down and think my junior year, is this something that I really want to go full steam ahead with and go to a high-powered swimming school, or do I want to get an all-around education and really concentrate on studying, but also be able to play a part in athletics? I think if I had gone to a high-powered swimming school, I probably would have been a little fish in a big pond. I don't know that I could have offered anything to a Division I swimming program. But as my dad put it, at W&L you could be a bigger fish in a little pond and have probably better memories of swimming when it was all said and done, and a great liberal arts education and something to remember always. Warren: So you applied. Mitzlaff: Uh-huh. Warren: Did you apply early decision? Mitzlaff: I didn't apply early decision, I didn't. I was still playing around with the idea of another school—SMU I was looking at seriously. So when I had talked to the swim coach, he said, "As soon as you know that W&L is your first choice, let us know, 3 because that could make a huge difference." I thought about it and I decided probably soon after Christmas that W&L was definitely my first choice. It was funny, because in my high school, I went to Collegiate, which was an all- girls' school. Kind of has a funny twist to it, too. Collegiate was getting ready to go coed, so here I am coming from an all-girls' school, going to an all-male school in the first coed class, but yet my alma mater high school was going coed. So I could kind of see where the guys were coming from with their points of view. The college counselor at Collegiate had us list probably six colleges that we were very interested in and then he would look at those and look at our potential, I guess you would say, or lack thereof in high school, and he would kind of rank them for us and say, "Now, this is a reach for you, I think you better concentrate more of your energy and effort towards this school. Now, I think this would be an appropriate school for you." Well, when he saw Washington and Lee on my list, he said, "I think this school would be a reach for you, that maybe you should look at some of the others." As soon as he said that, it just made me kind of buckle down and think, "There is no way. I'm going to prove to him he's wrong. I want to get in this school even more so now." I think the fact that he said it was a reach, the fact that Dad was able to enlighten me on a lot of neat traditions about W&L, and having seen the campus and all said and done, I think by January or February of that year I was definite that that was my first choice. Warren: So you get accepted. Mitzlaff: Uh-huh. Warren: You arrive on campus. Mitzlaff: Uh-huh. Warren: There aren't very many of you. Tell me about that. Mitzlaff: It was intimidating, it was very intimidating, and I felt like I was coming from a very small high school. I graduated with twenty girls, that was it. So twenty girls 4 and going to what then seemed like a huge college campus. By senior year it had shrunk, but I was really nervous and I kept thinking, "Someday, four years from now, I'm going to probably look at everybody on campus and know 50 percent of them, maybe." I was just so intimidated not knowing anybody, especially when classes started and I realized I was one of three girls in the classroom, and I wasn't used to boys in the classroom, and I'm sure they weren't used to girls in the classroom, the upperclassmen. But I think my grades probably reflected that first semester, because I was checking everything out and trying to figure out what I was going to make of it all, I think. Warren: So did you find it tough academically, or you're saying the social stuff was confusing, or what do you mean by that? Mitzlaff: I think that it was challenging socially, also, because when you get to campus as a freshman, at least when I was there, the boys start right off and Rush. That was kind of confusing, because you would talk to some of the upperclassmen who would said, "No, girls can't take part in Rush," because they would have open houses. Supposedly everybody could come to open house, male and female. But some of the upperclassmen were trying to say, "No, no, it's just for the guys." I think that made it hard because the girls didn't know where they fit in. There weren't any sororities for them, and I think that as a first-year female there, if you had sports and athletics, then that was an area that you could kind of bond with and become your club of friends, so to speak. So I was fortunate to be on the swim team and feel close to those guys. I definitely felt that when swim season started I had to prove myself to them. Because when lane assignments came about, I was in the lane with a couple upperclassmen and they said, "We don't want any girls in our lane. No way." So you think, well, poor guys, I guess I could kind of understand, but by golly, they've let us in and we're accepted and I've got to prove to them that I can hold my own. So that was kind of challenging. 5 You would hear all kinds of stories from some of the girls on the hall, on my hall, because they would tell me stories about how, "Well, don't go to such and such fraternity house because some of the guys there are rude to the girls," or they poured a beer on a coed's head. They would start talking to the girls and then realize that the girls went to W&L, and didn't care for it, so they poured a beer on their head. Now, I never had that happen to me, but you'd hear stories like that and that's kind of intimidating and I think it was challenging, especially when I was keeping in touch with my high school friends. My best friend from high school was at IU, Indiana University, and they had sororities there, and she had gone and tried out. I was talking to her one night on the phone and she stopped and she said, "Oh, my gosh, Elizabeth, can you hear this?" and she'd hold the phone out and you hear a bunch of guys chanting something. She came back to the phone and she says, "Those are the Phi Delts downstairs serenading us." I thought, "Oh, my, that would never happen here, it would just never happen." I think in the four years that I was there I saw a huge change, huge change. The first year, now, I don't think you would have seen the guys roll out the red carpet, so to speak, for the girls. If some of the true gentlemen there wanted to roll out the red carpet, I bet they were probably a little bit hesitant, because they would be heckled by their friends. That first year was definitely a transition year. Warren: So you saw a change as the years went on? Mitzlaff: Definitely. Warren: Tell me about that. Mitzlaff: Definitely. Well, I think probably what was happening was, as we came in the first year, the sophomores, juniors and seniors kind of resented it because they feared that tradition was going to be thrown down the tubes, and that girls on campus were going to change so many things that had made W&L what it was, a gentlemen's school. I guess they thought that we were going to change that. They had gone to W&L 6 knowing that it was all male and probably hoping and counting on the fact it would stay all male. So when the girls came in, that wasn't what they banked on, not what they had gone there for, I think. As each year passed, and as we kind of moved up towards junior and senior year, the whole sentiment had changed. Those upperclassmen that resented it were no longer there and the underclassmen came to W&L knowing it was going to be coed, so it was almost as if it was okay. It was becoming okay. Warren: How about your classmates, your male classmates? Were they a little protective of you or was there any special relationship there? Mitzlaff: It's hard to say. I think there were special relationships there. I don't know if you would call it brotherly and sisterly relationships. It's hard to say, because I don't know that it was all that unlike any other coed college campus where the girls and the boys come in all as freshmen and they mingle together and there's a bonding between members of the same class. So I don't know that it was different than any other college campus, but I think it was different than any other year ahead of me. I think there were definitely some bonds made. There were probably were some bonds made in each class after us, as well. Warren: Let's switch to swimming, because I understand you really did excel at swimming. Mitzlaff: It was fun, I liked it. Warren: Tell me about it. I mean, you did really well, from what I understand. Mitzlaff: My freshmen year, like I told you, I felt like I had to prove myself, so I felt like I was giving 110 percent every practice, not just at the meets, but at every practice. I think it was kind of hard for our swim coach because he had never coached women before, and women are different and they train differently, and when it's time to taper for a big meet, they taper differently. What that means is kind of in the middle of the season you're working on endurance and you're just doing long hours in the pool and sort of basically just working on your endurance for the meets. Then towards the end of 7 the season, you work more on your speed and you kind of fine-tune it so that you're not putting in so much distance, but you're putting in quality sprints that, like I said, fine- tune it. So when you taper, you're tapering off from a lot of distance down to a little distance, and if you hit your taper just right, then you'll perform just as you had hoped and maybe reach your goals in the meet. So anyway, long story short, the women tend to taper differently than the men, so I think it was challenging for the coach. I think it was challenging for the guys on the swim team, because now when we would road trip to the schools for swim meets, they had to kind of clean up their language a little bit because there were girls in the vans. It was interesting. But talking about bonds, I think those were some really strong bonds that were made. I can definitely look back and say I was closest with the swimmers than any other group on campus, and that makes sense, because that's who I spent most of my time with and all of our weekends and traveling and holidays and what have you when we were on campus, and not many other people were. But it was fun. So I felt like I proved myself, I guess, to some satisfaction freshmen year. I didn't perform any of my best times, but I hadn't even performed any best times since my sophomore year in high school. I was in a car accident my junior year, and my senior year I had mono, so these were some setbacks. So that was my goal each year at W&L was to get back to doing my best times. So I was pleased that I was qualified for Nationals, but still hadn't done any best times until my senior year at W&L where I felt like I was really concentrating all my energy and effort and really thinking about my races, kind of put my thinking cap on and started getting smart about them. So finally my senior year at W&L I got back to doing my best times and I think it was kind of a good way to end it up, round it all up with best times at your college. It was fun. Hard to let it go. 8 Warren: I'll bet. I don't really know that much about competitive swimming. What does it mean to be—you were All-American? Mitzlaff: Uh-huh. Warren: What does that mean exactly? Mitzlaff: All-American basically means that when you qualify for Nationals and then you swim in Nationals and you qualify in the top eight. So of all the people in Division III that go to Nationals, then when you compete in the morning, if your time is within the top eight, then you swim again that night in finals. Whether you finish first, second, third, through eighth, no matter what, you're the top eight in Division III in the nation, and so that's what they call All-American. Now, if you finish ninth through sixteenth, then that's Honorable Mention All- American. So I guess you could say I was Honorable Mention All-American or something, I probably ended up there more than the All-American. Warren: Were you the only girl swimmer from W&L who was at that level or were there a bunch of you? Mitzlaff: No, my freshmen and sophomore year I was the only one. Then my junior year we had a swimmer, Sharon Coleman, who was my roommate, and she also qualified for Nationals. So the two of us went with our swim coach and that was really fun. It was fun to have a buddy there, because my freshmen and sophomore year, it was kind of lonely. Everybody else was doing their warm-up and their cheers together, and here I was from W&L, the only one, not doing any cheers. I think there was another swimmer from Sweet Briar who we kind of, I guess you'd say, bonded my freshmen and sophomore year. We stuck together and our coaches would stick together and we would all go out to dinner afterwards and stuff, but it's not quite the same when it's not someone from your own school. So that was a little bit more fun, having someone else. Warren: You were there during the period of Sigma Aqua, right? 9 Mitzlaff: Uh-huh. Warren: I have the male point of view on Sigma Aqua. Mitzlaff: Oh, you do? Warren: Tell me about your point of view of Sigma Aqua. Mitzlaff: It was great. It was fun. A lot of the swimmers didn't pledge to a fraternity; it just took up too many hours. So what they ended up doing was a bunch of them that were just good buddies decided to live together in this house and it would always be the place where everybody congregated. Whenever we could relax and have a beer or get together and rent movies or whatever, that's where we would go. I think at one point in time there might have been seven or eight male swimmers that all lived in that house, so they decided to call it Sigma Aqua. It was really fun because it ended up that a lot of guys from the fraternities, there would be a lot of Sigma Chis and Phi Delts and PiKAs that would come by. With the Honor System, our coach decided to make a drinking rule, that you could not drink or consume alcohol within twenty-four hours of a workout or a swim meet, and that if you did, you were on your honor to confess and to withdraw from the swim meet or not show up at practice the next day. So if we did consume alcohol and then showed up at the practice or at the meet, then I think the consequences would be much more grave. But nobody did, and we all stuck to the Honor System. So nights where we would get back early enough from a swim meet and everybody would rally together, the word would spread kind of across campus, "Sigma Aqua's having a party tonight," so there might a hundred or two hundred people that would show up. So it was really fun. It kind of did become a fraternity that had no boundaries and no limits and anybody could come and everybody did. So it was fun, it was a lot of fun. They ended up even having their own Christmas parties, when all the other fraternities would have their Christmas parties and have dates and decorate the house and get a Christmas tree and what have you, Sigma Aqua did the same thing. It was 10 fun. I mean, I think it was a way that the guys on the swim team could feel like they were a part of a pseudo fraternity, maybe. So I hear it's been disbanded. I don't know. Warren: Have you heard what it's evolved into? Mitzlaff: No. Warren: The house is now called Aqua Velva. Mitzlaff: Oh, no. Warren: I was curious about where Aqua Velva came from, and then I heard about Sigma Aqua and it all started to come together in my mind. Mitzlaff: Oh, my gosh. Warren: Yeah, it's now Aqua Velva. The house is still a student house. Mitzlaff: It's still the same house? Warren: Yeah, that's my understanding, it's still the same house. Mitzlaff: I can't believe it's still standing. Warren: This is evolution in Lexington. This is our form of evolution. Now, you mentioned the Honor System. Tell me about how you learned about the Honor System and what it meant to you while you were there. Mitzlaff: Well, basically I learned a lot about it through my dad, and my high school had the Honor System. I had gone to Collegiate second grade through twelfth grade, so I was very familiar with the Honor System and knew how special it was. Not very many college campuses have an Honor System. So it's one thing for a college campus to have an Honor System, but it's another for a college campus to have an Honor System that works, and that it works because the students make it work, and that's exactly what W&L had. I mean, you could go to the library and study in a carrel for a couple hours, leave your jacket there, and come back a week or two later and it's still there. Several times you could see a carrel that would have a watch or a wallet on it, and come back a couple days later and probably it would still be there. So I think it was very unique to W&L. 11 I think of all the things that I think of of W&L, the one thing that stands out in my mind, that makes it so unique, is the Honor System. It was interesting. Unfortunately, I got to see it work. You hate to see it, but things come up and there would be a violation of honor or, I think at one point in time it might have been even theft, but plagiarism was the one that stood out in my mind. One of the girls in my class had been accused of plagiarism, and, of course, as you probably know, with the Honor System everybody goes to Lee Chapel and it's an open trial and you can watch it and learn and see, and to have the law students involved was fantastic. It ended up that she was found innocent, and I think that was interesting, because some people, I think, had in the back of their mind, "This is the first female that has been brought up before the Honor System and what's going to happen? Are we going to walk away from this and feel like it's a fair trial, or are they going to nail her to the wall and try to make an example of her, or just what's going to come about of this." You hate to think of discrimination. I think that she was found innocent, and having watched the trial, I agreed with it. But I think that it was a very fair trial and opened a lot of people's eyes that, in fact, women are treated equally at W&L. And I think that was something that people needed to see, parents, alumni, faculty and students needed to see that and all were involved in that trial. There was a faculty member that was involved in it, and her parents were there and present and accounted for, and students were there to support her, or tell what they knew. I think it was important. I don't even remember if a female came up again on the Honor System or not, but you could see that it was working because there were cases where somebody was asked to leave the school campus, and knowing the history of the trial and what had happened, you know, it was fair. That's something that's really important, is that if you're going to have an Honor System it's got to be fair or else it's not going to work. 12 Warren: Day to day did you have an awareness of it? I mean, was it a constant presence in your life knowing about the Honor System, or was it just dramatic times like that that you were reminded of it? Mitzlaff: Honestly, I think it was probably just dramatic times that I was aware of it, because it was what I had grown up with and it was what I knew, and just also how I was brought up with my parents. I mean, lying is not acceptable, absolutely not acceptable, and your honor is something that you will have forever, and if you tarnish it, chances are it's going to be tarnished forever. So it was something that my parents taught me how to respect at an early age. Then having had it in my high school and seeing it work there as well, it was an everyday thing. I wasn't that aware of it. Warren: Let's talk about being the daughter of an alumnus. Were there a lot of you in that first class who had relatives who had gone to Washington and Lee? Mitzlaff: Not knowing any numbers, if I were to guess, I would probably say 60 percent, maybe. Warren: Really? Mitzlaff: I think there were more than half. Warren: Really? Mitzlaff: I could be wrong and this is just guessing, but I had the feeling that there were quite a few of us. Then you would hear remarks every once in awhile like, well, the only reason why they got in is because their father went here. I thought, well, you know, that only takes you so far. I'm going to be the only one that keeps me here. So it doesn't matter to me how I got in or why I got in, I'm just glad I did and now I'm keeping myself here. I kind of like the fact that W&L does give consideration to legacy, I think it makes it special. Warren: Tell me more about that. Mitzlaff: Well, I think that when, let's say, a grandfather goes to W&L and has his personal experience at W&L, he can pass that on to his son and tell him about how 13 special W&L was. Then the son is then able to take in the respect for W&L that his father had and then pass that on to his son or daughter, now. So I think it should not become something that's automatic, and I don't think it will become something that's automatic, but I definitely think that it's important, especially now that I'm out of the school and can appreciate what endowment means. I do believe that when you have legacies, long family lines that go to W&L, you can rest assured that there will be hope for endowment there. I think that's important. Now, if you had said that to me as a student at W&L, I don't know that I would have appreciated what the endowment is. But I definitely think that's important, and I think it's fine because Dad and I have a special bond now. I think Mom almost regrets that she didn't go to W&L. She probably feels like she did having kind of lived through it with me, and now that Dad's on the board and she travels there quite a bit with him, I think she has quite a respect for it. But I think the family lineage is important if it is respected. It should not, like I said, be automatic. Warren: Was your father on the board when you were a student? Mitzlaff: I think he got on the board in '89, and I graduated in '89, so I don't know. I think he got on the board— Warren: I think that's right, too. Mitzlaff: —early in '89. Maybe like a couple months before graduation. I kept thinking at the time, gosh, why didn't he do this sooner so they could come back and visit and I'd be here and you'd have more weekends than just family weekends and swim meets and stuff. But I think that's been fun for him. He's going to miss being off the board. He's only got two more meetings and then he's off. Warren: Oh, really. Mitzlaff: Yeah. Warren: Well, maybe your mother will go on. Mitzlaff: Scary. 14 Warren: I don't want to jump completely out, but you just mentioned your last couple of months. One thing that I learned about you is that you're one of the people who joined a sorority at the very end. First of all, I think that's just real interesting, to join a sorority for a very short period of time. Mitzlaff: Three months. Warren: The whole issue of sororities, I mean, that must have been a big topic of conversation. Tell me about that. Mitzlaff: I think the girls needed something, and I think it's too bad it didn't happen sooner, but I think that a lot of girls were thinking, "Alumni Weekend's going to roll around and we don't have a place to go, we don't have a place to meet." I don't know what finally made it all come together, if it was just timing or what that made it all come together, but I think all the girls were excited about it, to have sororities on campus, something that they could bond to, pledge alliance to, and have a place to come back to on Alumni Weekend. I think all the guys were in favor of it, because this opened up new opportunities for them to have a sister sorority and parties together with sororities. So it was fun to watch it all develop. I think it was interesting to watch the tide change. As my freshman year came around and the guys were pledging to fraternities, we were all standing back and we were on the outside looking in. Then by my senior year we were on the inside, and I think they were kind of on the outside looking in, watching it all happen and were excited for us. It was funny, because I thought, "I just don't think I'm going to join the sorority. It's so late in the year." And I didn't fully know what they were all about and how much time that they would take. I thought, "Well, I'm just going to go to this first meeting that they're having just to hear what it's all about and to see who shows up and see what sororities are going to be represented." So I went to it thinking that I would 15 probably only stay a half an hour, and I ended up staying probably two hours, had a blast, met new girls on campus that I hadn't known yet, and stuck with it. So then decided that I wanted to Rush Theta—I guess you'd say Rush Theta— and so everything worked out really well that I became a Theta. The other controversy was that the day that they were having initiation was on Derby Day, so from me, being from Kentucky, I thought, "Oh, no, what am I going to do? Go to the Kentucky Derby like I have every year before that, or I am going to stay here and go through initiation?" So they were very nice and let me work it out so that I could home for the Derby and then watch the Derby. Then probably about four o'clock in the morning, Sunday morning, jumped in the car and drove back to W&L, got there by 1:00 and was initiated with a couple of other girls that had conflicts that weekend. But it was fun. I'm glad I did it. Now it's been fun because I keep in touch with some of the Thetas in Louisville that didn't go to W&L, but went to other colleges. So it's fun. It's kind of another little outlet for me now. Warren: So when was it that sororities really became a serious issue? Was that not until your senior year? Mitzlaff: I think there were probably mumblings about it my sophomore year, rumors about it my junior year, and then beginning of senior year, I think there was serious discussion. Now, I could be wrong. That was kind of how I saw it unfolding. Warren: That's very nicely put. Mitzlaff: It was fun. It was another way that—girls needed something to get involved in, and politics on W&L's campus was very tough to get involved in as a female, especially my freshmen year. When elections rolled around for class president and one of the girls ran for class president, I think everybody laughed at her until they met her. I think they thought, "Who is she? There is no way some chick is going to become class president already." To tell you the truth, I think at the time I was even thinking, "Whoa, 16 this might get a little bit much," you know. "We're new on campus, we don't want to step on any toes. Maybe we should see how the whole system flows and then kind of work into it." But she wasn't elected that year, but I think the following year she was maybe vice president. She was involved and very respected. I think that even all four years I think it was very tough for girls to get involved in any politics on campus, whether it was student government or class officers or what it was. So this sorority offered something that the girls could get involved in, and they did. It was fun. Everybody had a chance or an opportunity to take part in some sort of leadership, even if it was just small projects within the sorority. I think everybody needs that, males and females. Everybody needs to be able to spread their wings and stand on their own two feet and kind of realize who they are and what they're all about. I love to see people reaching out for any kind of leadership position. Warren: How about in things like Mock Convention or Fancy Dress? Were girls given any leadership positions there? Mitzlaff: Well, they were involved, very much so. They were very much involved with the decorations and the planning and what have you with that. Well, with "that," when I say "that," I'm referring first to Fancy Dress, but I believe also Mock Convention, that they were quite involved on committees and decorating the floats. I personally wasn't involved with it, so I don't know what all goes into it. Warren: Did you go to Mock Convention, were you involved at all? Mitzlaff: I went to it, that's about as involved as I was. Warren: Were you a delegate? Mitzlaff: No. Just a spectator. Warren: You were there at a real interesting time. I've got to ask you, were you at Zollman’s when Bill Clinton played the saxophone? Mitzlaff: I was not. 17 Warren: A real opportunity missed, then. Mitzlaff: I was not. I was not. But getting back to Fancy Dress, as you probably know, they have a theme poster every year and theme bumper stickers. So I guess, I can't remember if it was my sophomore year, I'm pretty sure it was my sophomore year, a bumper sticker came out that said, "There's nothing I'd rather see less than a W&L woman at Fancy Dress," or a coed or a W&L woman at Fancy Dress. So every once in a while you'd still see the bumper stickers and the shirts that kind of were down on women, and you had to say, "Tough luck, Bud. You know, sorry. We're here to stay." I hope, and I personally look back and think, that the W&L women made a positive impact on the campus, even though it took a while for it to be realized maybe, a year or two at least. But I think it did make a positive impact and that applications are up, SAT scores are up. Now, I can't say that's all because of the women, but I think probably the whole applicant group, their SAT scores are up, and helps to make for a more attractive enrollment, I think. Warren: Yes, I think so, too. Did you go to Fancy Dress? Mitzlaff: Uh-huh. Warren: Tell me about Fancy Dress. Fancy Dress is so uniquely Washington and Lee. I always ask everybody, tell me about Fancy Dress. Mitzlaff: It was great. It was great. It was probably quite different than when my father went there. When he went there, it really was Fancy Dress. I mean, everybody got their hoop skirts and the long gloves and some probably wore hats and the gentlemen were in fancy-type garb, I guess you would say, something other than just a plain old tux. But when I was there, everybody was in tux and nice dresses, didn't see any hoop skirts, but it was fun. It was definitely a great time that always, to me, signaled the beginning of spring and spring term, which was a fun change of pace. You got to spend more hours out of the classroom than you did in, and more hours out of the library, as well. So you kind of 18 got to sow your oats a little bit in spring term. Fancy Dress was fun. It was fun to watch the whole campus come together and pool their energies for making it all happen. Warren: I'm going to flip the tape over.