Mitzlaff interview

[Begin Tape 1, Side 2]
Warren: Was getting a date for Fancy Dress an issue?
Mitzlaff: Well, I think for some people it was. I think if you were dating somebody at
the time, then it wasn't an issue. But it was interesting, as Fancy Dress neared, girls from
other schools would pile into W&L. I guess Fancy Dress is around March something,
March 10th, maybe, and mid-February on, all the fraternity houses would be packed,
more so than any other time, as all the girls from neighboring schools were piling in
and looking for dates and very hopeful.

         I can't say that a W&L girl would have preference among the men, but I think
that probably the majority of females at Fancy Dress were W&L females. You know,
times change. Nowadays women ask men out, too, so I don't know how much that
happened. But I would say most of the W&L girls were there, present and accounted
for. How tough it was, I don't know. I don't know.
Warren: So it wasn't the big discussion in the dorms or among the women's housing
about getting dates?
Mitzlaff: About hoping to get a date?
Warren: I've heard there was some resistance among Washington and Lee men to date
Washington and Lee women. Did you experience that?
Mitzlaff: Well, I think I did more so my freshmen year than any other year. But it was
also interesting, as the W&L women started branching out a little bit and meeting the
guys from VMI and meeting the guys from Hampden-Sydney, then tides kind of turned
a little bit. All of a sudden the guys started realizing, "Hey, wait a minute." At first they
thought, "We don't want to date them, but we certainly don't want them to date VMIs

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or Hampden-Sydney guys either." So it was kind of interesting. Especially I guess I'm
referring to the swim team, too.

         There was one weekend that I went down to Homecoming at Hampden-Sydney
and, oh, my gosh, they wouldn't let up about that. I can't believe, that was a disgrace to
them. They couldn't believe I was going down to Hampden-Sydney for Homecoming.
So it was kind of funny. That's when I was realizing, well, you know, they don't want
any of us to date any of them, W&L guys, but yet they didn't want us to date anyone
else either. Kind of a little brotherly love, maybe. [Laughter]
Warren: That's what it sounds like.
Mitzlaff: Little bit.
Warren: That's what it sounds like. Well, I guess one thing we ought to bring up here
is, you do go to school for academics, right? We ought to talk a little bit about
academics. Were there any particular faculty members who made a big difference for
you?
Mitzlaff: Well, I think there were, definitely. My freshmen year, I kind of felt like I was
floundering a little bit, trying to find my way. Before I got to W&L, we have a big
Louisville picnic with guys that are currently going to W&L, as well as alumni and all
incoming freshmen. So I had met some of the people that were going to be there at
W&L, some upperclassman, and they said, "Now, these are the classes that you want to
take, and stay away from this professor," or, "Stay away from this class." So they kind
of helped me out a little bit, and I think I just got in over my head. The classes were
tougher than I thought, and I think freshmen classes at W&L are really tough. They're
kind of weeder courses. I really didn't know which direction I wanted to go.

         At one point in time I was thinking pre-med, and then another point in time I
thought "Well, no, not pre-med, but where, I don't know." So my first semester my
grades were really struggling. So somebody had told me about Professor Novak, who
was in the sociology department, and he taught sociology and anthropology. I wasn't

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that thrilled with my advisor that I had at the time, so I started talking to Professor
Novak and switched over to him, to have him as my advisor. So he was great at helping
me pick my brain to find out exactly what my interests were, and really my interest had
become psychology. I loved psychology, the anatomy physiology of it, as well as the
social interpersonal study of it. So he kind of helped me realize that. I felt like when I
finally got my act together and figured out where I wanted to go with it, that my grades
all came together, and I think from sophomore year and thereafter I was Dean's List.
Thank goodness, because my parents were probably chewing their fingernails off.

         But Professor Novak was fantastic, because he was very approachable, always
there, always had an ear for you and a shoulder to cry on if need be. But he really
helped me figure out what direction I wanted to go into. I majored in psychology and
minored in sociology. Then it was kind of interesting, because probably toward the end
of my junior year I realized I loved studying psychology, but I don't know what I want
to do with it, I don't think I want to become a psychologist, where do I want to go.

         So about that time my dad was going through cardiac rehab, because he had had
bypass surgery, and so when I came home, I guess it was summer between junior and
senior year, I would go to cardiac rehab with him and I would talk to the nurses and the
exercise physiologist there. They finally were the ones that said psychology is an
excellent degree to have, get your degree and stay on the same track and then you can
add to it. So that's when I came home, after graduating from W&L, and knew I wanted
to go into physical therapy. So I think things work out in mysterious ways, but I think
having had that psychology degree helped me to get into physical therapy school and I
use it all the time.
Warren: I bet you do.
Mitzlaff: I use it all the time. Yeah. I hope that W&L will get a physical therapy
program maybe some day. I don't know.

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Warren: I'll volunteer, they can practice on me. They could start with me. That would
be great.

         Anybody else, any other teachers that meant a lot?
Mitzlaff: Well, Dr. Elms, Elms in the psychology department, I think he was a great
role model for me because he, I guess, he was sort of like an advisor to me, as well.
When I decided that psychology was going to be my major, he's the one that I kind of
transitioned to from Professor Novak to Dr. Elms. But he was kind of funny, he was
somebody that was very strict and stern on the outside, but had a real soft heart, and
once you got to his heart, he would do anything for you. I wouldn't say that we had an
extra specially close relationship, but he was always someone that I respected and
admired. I think he was a great role model for me.

         Then I guess you'd also have to say my swim coach, as many hours as we spent
together.
Warren: Tell me about him. You haven't named him.
Mitzlaff: Coach Remillard. Coach Remillard was trying to figure women out, I think,
and I hope that I was able to help him figure them out, as far as women athletes. I think
that we shared an admiration for each other, because I think he saw that it was tough
and not that the women—there were only three girls in the team freshmen year. I don't
think any of the women ever went crying to him saying, "You just won't believe what
the guys have done." But we tried to hold our own and he would let us hold our own
and then at the same time would kind of say, "Look, guys, back off. You all aren't the
studs that you think you are either." It was fun.

         We had a close relationship, because I felt like at times I was kind of the mediator
or go-between between the coach and the swim team. I was team captain all four years
there and I think that sometimes he wouldn't know exactly how to approach the
women, so he would pull me aside and say, "Okay, look, this is what we need to do and
this is how we want to approach this topic. Can you help me out here?" I think there

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was kind of that kind of a relationship. At times the girls on the swim team would have
a beef to pick and they would come and say, "Look, we're upset about this," or
frustrated about this, or, "We see a conflict coming. What do we do about it?" I felt that
I could go and talk to him about it and say, "We've got to work something out here," or,
"This isn't going to work as it is right now, but how can we help it and change it to
make it so it's going to work?"
Warren: What kinds of things?
Mitzlaff: I see your face kind of turning. The drinking rule became a big stress point.
My freshmen year we didn't have a drinking rule, and it's sad that you would even
need one, really. But sophomore year we had a drinking rule and it was on the Honor
System that you're not to drink within twenty-four hours of a workout or a swim meet.
We felt that that was kind of using the Honor System in a way it wasn't meant to be
used and that we were in college now and that we need to learn to drink responsibly. If
we have our priorities in line, we're not going to go out and get rambunctious the night
before a swim meet.

         Now, the conflict came when some of the people were involved in activities,
predominantly fraternity activities, with Rush and pledging, sometimes they would
have to get involved in a Rush party or whatever the night before a swim meet, and as
pledges they would probably use alcohol to excess, like if they'd have been thinking
straight and prioritizing the swim meet, then they wouldn't have. So that became an
issue.

         Then one of our swimmers one year was in a really bad car accident. There had
been a party at Sigma Aqua and he had left the party and he was in a really bad
accident. I think that was one of the crowning blows that coach finally said, "Look, this
is silly. We don't want to lose any of our swimmers because of alcohol. We don't want
to lose any of our swim meets because of alcohol," and I think he just wanted to tighten

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the grip on us and say, "Look, it's not that important. You'll have your play time
afterwards."

         But as I look back on college, college is as much a learning experience in the
classroom as it is out of the classroom, and W&L had always had a reputation of
studying and working hard, as well as playing hard. I think that coach finally just said,
"Enough of that, we're just going to take that factor out of the game." So there was some
resentment, because as we would be required to stay on campus through most of
Thanksgiving break, we would be exhausted from having two workouts a day, and we
had all planned to a meeting at Sigma Aqua and making a big batch of spaghetti and
would love to have a beer and watch a football game, and because we had a workout
the next day we couldn't do that. So that would get a little stressful sometimes. I guess
you've got to have something to stress over or else things would be too rosy, I guess.

         But sometimes things like that would crop up and it would be stressful, and we
would call coach and we'd say, "Look, we're all here together, we're exhausted, we're
tired, we're not going to get rambunctious, but we would like to have a beer," and
sometimes he would bend his rules and say, "Keep everybody responsible and I'll see
you in the morning," something like that. But I think that was probably one of the main
sources of controversy. Probably that.

         If I can think of anything else it, might have been the fact that two workouts a
day were optional on the swim team and the first workout was more on land than it
was in the pool. So it was up to you if you were going to show up at morning workout,
which would be held probably like, I'm trying to remember, 5:30, something like that,
and you'd show up in the weight room. I think the girls started slacking off a little bit. A
lot of the girls on the swim team had never swam before and they didn't care about
bulking up with free weights or anything like that. But they would show up in the
afternoon and were very eager and energetic to contribute in the pool, and I think
sometimes the guys were kind of like, "Look, we're here. We don't want to be here, but

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we're here and we think they should be here, too." So I think that was kind of an issue
that just finally worked itself out through some conversations.
Warren: Now, help me to understand. Was there one swim team or two teams?
Mitzlaff: There was one when I was there.
Warren: You were captain?
Mitzlaff: Well, I was captain of the women's swim team, I guess you could say. Really
it was one swim team. I mean, we all practiced together, we all trained as a team and
most of our swim meets were coed swim meets.
Warren: Really.
Mitzlaff: Now, I say it like that because now it has changed. I think there's a women's
coach and a men's coach and women's captains and men's captains and different swim
meets sometimes. So it was really a sense of one team, but two captains, a male captain
and a female captain, is kind of how it developed. So I guess I was technically captain of
the women's team.
Warren: That was going to be very impressive as a freshmen female you were captain
of the senior men.
Mitzlaff: No. No, no, no. Then they really wouldn't have talked to me.
Warren: Wow, that's intriguing. Do you know whether that was true in other sports,
were all teams coed at first?
Mitzlaff: One of the only women's teams that were offered my freshmen year were
soccer, I think, volleyball, swimming, and I believe field hockey didn't come until my
sophomore year. Tennis did come my freshmen year as well. But I feel sure that those
teams trained separately, on a separate field from the men. So I think that swimming
was unique in that it was men and women training at the same time in the same pool
and in some cases in the same lane and would even have meets together.
Warren: How did the other schools respond having women show up on the W&L
team? Was that a surprise?

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Mitzlaff: Well, I think that some of them probably thought, oh, it'll be a cakewalk. I
think they just—you know, I probably just haven't thought about it from their
perspective and what they thought about it. I don't know.
Warren: You swam competitively, but Washington and Lee has a big Phys Ed program,
too. Did you do other things besides swimming?
Mitzlaff: I think, at least with me, when you swim for two years, or two seasons, you
can get exempt from two physical education requirements. So even though I swam all
four years, I could only get exempt from two credits. So I think I did racquetball one
year and horseback riding another year, and I can't even remember what I did the third
year.

         But I kind of felt at the time that if you were going to dedicate yourself to a sport,
especially four years, that you should get exempt from it, because the last thing you
want to do is go from working out with the swim team in the morning to racquetball
and then to biology and then to English, through all your classes, and then back to the
pool again. I felt like it was a little bit much. But I would get involved as required.
Warren: Those were coed—
Mitzlaff: Coed classes?
Warren: —classes, right?
Mitzlaff: Uh-huh.
Warren: Were they competitive at all? I guess horseback riding wouldn't be too
competitive.
Mitzlaff: Horseback riding wasn't competitive. Now, racquetball, I felt like it was
almost a joke. I think there was only maybe two girls in my racquetball class and the
guys would absolutely kill us. I think the coach knew that, so he would try to put the
two girls together a lot. Maybe once or twice did I even play with one of the guys, but
they would, they would absolutely demolish us. They were much stronger and faster,

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and I didn't know anything about racquetball, really, when I started doing it in P.E., so
they had the advantage, definitely.
Warren: Well said. Well, let's get back to academics. Outside of your major, were there
any classes that really stood out for you?
Mitzlaff: Well, I thought it was kind of interesting one year, I think this was my junior
year, in the sociology department they offered a class called "Male and Female
Relations," and that was interesting. We got into some heated discussions and—
Warren: Tell me more about that.
Mitzlaff: Well, it was kind of interesting, because you would talk about should females
be given the same opportunities as males, regardless of their qualifications, regardless
of their age or financial background, should they be given equal opportunity, which
quickly lead to the discussion of equal pay for the same job. It was interesting. Some of
the upperclassmen definitely said that the women shouldn't be paid the same pay for
doing the same job as a man. I mean, the conversation probably wouldn't last more than
a minute these days, but that was kind of interesting, still hearing that kind of talk.

         You know, should men stay home with the baby when the mother brings home
the baby? Should men have time off, hospital leave? Should the man stay home with
the child and raise the child when the mother has a job that might pay more?
Discussions like that that would come up. That was kind of an interesting class. I
remember that one stands out.

         Now, I'd have to say that one of the rumors, I'm just going to say it's a rumor or
was a rumor, was that the professors in the commerce school were not thrilled about
coeducation and were not thrilled about women in the class. Some girls even told that
the professors had made a comment of dislike of having a female in their class and that
they didn't vote for coeducation themselves and the resentment was felt there. So a lot
of times you would hear somebody, "Well, I'm just not even going to bother taking any
classes in the C School."

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         So that wasn't really where I wanted to go with my academics, so it didn't
require that I had to pass through those halls very often. I think I took a couple classes,
econ classes and what have you there, but as I look back on it, my econ professor was
very open to females. But that was something that kind of made you sad a little bit
when you arrive to campus, and you expect that there's going to be some resentment
from the students, but to see or hear about some resentment from the faculty is kind of
disheartening.
Warren: Was it only in the commerce school that you were aware of that?
Mitzlaff: Well, I'm trying to remember, there might have even been some in the history
building, as well. I don't know if there were some common professors that taught some
history classes and some commerce classes or not, so I just hate to even be quoted at
that. But it was much more known that the commerce school was really where women
didn't belong.
Warren: That's really interesting. Now, there were female C-School majors.
Mitzlaff: Uh-huh.
Warren: So they had a tougher row to hoe than most.
Mitzlaff: Yeah. I think it was probably tough on them. They probably felt like salmon
swimming upstream. [Laughter] I think it was kind of tough. But I don't know, I
imagine that they, too, probably felt like they had to prove themselves at first, and once
they did, then they probably got some respect that they deserved.
Warren: Yeah, I'll bet, if that's the attitude. Okay. So anything more about your school
years, anything you'd like to talk about, anything I haven't asked you?
Mitzlaff: I think that while I look back on it and think if I could do anything
differently, would I? I think that if I could do anything differently, I would like to have
been involved in more. I would have liked to have been involved in the Mock
Convention more. I would have liked to have been maybe not so tight. I can't say not so
tight, but I wish that I had branched out a little bit more and spread my wings outside

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of the Sigma Aqua arena, really. I don't know about involvement in the school politics
or anything, I don't think that really interests me. But you look back and you think
there's only so much you can do in four years, I almost wish it had been eight.

         It's kind of fun now because I'm an alumni admissions organizer in Louisville,
and so I go to some of the college fairs and represent W&L, and it's fun. I went this past
Tuesday and they said, "Well, what were you involved in on campus, and what sports
are good there, and are fraternities big there?" I look back on it and I think, gosh, W&L
had a little bit of everything. I mean, you could get involved in so many things, so many
opportunities there. Watching all these young juniors and seniors in high school come
up and ask so many questions about it, I think, I'm so proud to stand here and tell them
about W&L. I came home the other day wishing that I was where they were, that I
could go back and do it all over again.

         Some of them even knew, they even said, "Well, you must have been in one of
the first classes of girls," and I thought, "Wow, what does that mean? Does that mean
I'm old? What are you trying to say?" So some of them want to ask about that and are
girls accepted now and are they well integrated into the class system there now.

         It's fun. I feel like I've kind of come full circle now, or at least maybe halfway.
Who knows what lies ahead. I think having looked back and thought I wish I had
become more involved, I had to stop and tell myself, it's not too late, I can still get
involved. That's kind of when I decided I want to help out from Louisville and get
involved and maybe help out to get some energetic, bright-eyed freshmen from
Louisville on campus.
Warren: Well, you keep staying one step ahead of me, because my question was, what
has W&L meant to you out of school? Do you get together in chapter meetings with
your fellow alums?
Mitzlaff: We get together. I can't say I have been to a chapter meeting, I've been to a
chapter organization, more like parties.

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Warren: Well, that's what I understand they are.
Mitzlaff: Yeah. Yeah. To get together and welcome the incoming freshmen the summer
before they go in. Say, like when somebody from W&L, whether they're in admissions
or a dean, comes to Louisville for whatever reason, whether it's fund-raising or what
have you, we get together, cocktail party-type thing.

         I tell you what was fun, also, in physical therapy school, you have to do an
internship. Well, you have to do several internships. I did all of mine down in
Nashville, Tennessee. It was amazing seeing the W&L network come into action down
there. I think I had called one person, Elizabeth Cummins, and she said, "This is great.
I'm going to get everybody together and we're all going to go out to dinner," and she
just—I mean, it was fantastic. We got together with probably four other W&L girls and
it was just fun, because they were girls that I didn't really spend a whole lot of time with
on campus, maybe lived one hall above them or lived in the dorm next door to them or
what have you. But it was fun.

         Then I went to the alumni meeting down in Nashville for incoming freshmen,
and that was a good time. It was just fun knowing that no matter where you go, you
will probably have some kind of a connection with W&L, small as the school that it is,
you will probably still have some kind of connection. I mean, the W&L network
definitely reaches out to you lots.
Warren: It's pretty impressive. I'm sure there are other schools who figured this out,
but Washington and Lee has it to an art.
Mitzlaff: Tight network. Yeah, they do. They do. Which I think that's neat, you can't
beat it. You really can't. I think in a large school you can't really have that. All my
friends that have gone to larger schools, I never hear them talking about, "I got together
with a bunch of IU grads last night," or wherever else they went to, Duke or UNC or
Princeton or wherever. You just don't hear about that very often.
Warren: I presume at these gatherings there are people of all different ages.

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Mitzlaff: Uh-huh.
Warren: Do you find that everybody has a lot in common because you all went to the
same school?
Mitzlaff: I think so. I think so. We have a lot in common in that I would say it's almost
like a common thread, but everybody is different in their own unique way and gets
involved in different professions and what have you, so that when we all get together
they almost complement each other as far as—you know, you go to a W&L function
and it's almost like everybody picks up right where they left off. You never get the
feeling like, "Oh, gosh, I was meaning to call you. I'm so sorry I haven't been in touch in
so long." It's not really any of that, it's just like, "Great to see you. So glad you're here.
How's everything going with you?" That's what's really neat about W&L, is that
everybody picks right up where you left off. I think that's what friendship is all about,
no matter what age, no matter what age.

         But it was interesting my first year out of W&L going to one of those alumni
meetings, because there were some elderly men there, and I know that they weren't
thrilled about W&L going coed. I think some of them had even made a comment to my
dad that, something to the effect that, "We're proud of Elizabeth and her
accomplishments and we really admire her." Now, they didn't say that they changed
their mind, but they were kind of saying that, you know, I think they were recognizing
the fact that coeducation at W&L is not all bad, that if they had to come out and say, I
guess they can now come out and say that they're proud of the graduates, the female
graduates that have come through. At least I hope.
Warren: That's quite an accomplishment. So now you have a little different perspective
probably from most people, having your father on the board.
Mitzlaff: Uh-huh.
Warren: What angle does that bring? What does that bring to the mix?

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Mitzlaff: It's fun because I feel like Dad has the experience and the wisdom, but at the
same time I have the experience and the wisdom from a slightly different angle, as you
said, and a newer angle, too. I mean, there have been times where something has come
up, an issue has come up, and Dad has called me and said, "What do you think about
this? What, as you remember, is going on on campus, and what would the students say
to this?"

         I remember one of the issues that came up was date rape, and that was probably
an issue that people didn't think about a whole lot before women got there. Now that
women are on campus, they've got to think about date rape. I think that there was a
serious case of date rape that came up, and Dad asked my input on it, and I just
remember saying, "Dad, you've got to be careful with this one because it's going to set
precedent and you need to set an example, a fair example, and a just example." But I
think that was an issue that they didn't know exactly how to reprimand, so to speak.

         Other than that, there have been the issues of drinking on campus and drinking
in the fraternities and drugs on campus. Of course, drinking was on campus when Dad
was there, but drugs, you know, that's just kind of foreign to him. So he would say,
"What did you know about all this going on? Kind of enlighten me." So it's been fun
that I have been able to shed a little light on it for him and to share ideas with him and
to hear what's still going on on campus from the inside.
Warren: It must be fun to educate your old man, too.
Mitzlaff: Yeah. It's not fun when you're talking about drugs and stuff, because it
happens and it's on every college campus, and date rape is on every college campus.
But some of the other things are much more fun to talk about with anyone, though. I'll
put it this way, it's flattering that Dad would ask my opinion and how it was when I
was there. I feel ancient saying it like that, because it was so long ago.
Warren: Well, I think he's lucky to have you—
Mitzlaff: Well, I feel the same about him.

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Warren: —to tap into.
         Well, is there anything more you'd like to say? I think this has been a wonderful

interview.
Mitzlaff: Well, thank you. Anything else? I don't know. Except that I hope my children
go there. It's going to be a tough call, because my husband was University of Richmond,
which is just in Richmond, Virginia, right down the road from us. It's funny when we
compare stories, because he was very good friends with a guy at W&L that I knew very
well, too. So he would come to W&L, he even applied to W&L, and I believe he was
accepted, but was accepted early at Richmond, so he committed early. It's fun to
compare stories, because University of Richmond and W&L are similar in many ways,
in many ways.

         I think when it comes time for our children to decide where to go, it's going to
be—I'd be proud for them to go either way, but I sure would be pulling for W&L.
[Laughter] I'll probably have to do what my dad did and leave the room singing the
alma mater.
Warren: You'll be singing The Swing.
Mitzlaff: Get my W&L sweater out and start wearing it more.
Warren: You could do The Swing as a lullaby as you're rocking them to sleep, and you
could just get it subliminally from the start.
Mitzlaff: That's right.
Warren: Well, thank you, Elizabeth.
Mitzlaff: Well, thank you.
Warren: This has been really good.
Mitzlaff: Thank you. It's been fun.
Warren: Worth the trip.
Mitzlaff: Well, good. Good.
[End of interview]

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