Munger interview

[Begin Tape 2, Side 1]
Warren: This is Mame Warren. It's February 21, 1996. This is tape two with Betty
Munger in Lexington, Virginia.
Munger: The Vietnam War. I was in favor of coeducation, and I laughed a lot and we
had a good time, and I wanted it that kind of place, and it was. Now, because of the
women, it's much more—they were shoppers. They need a new bookstore. They need a
whole new building, as a matter of fact. But it got scratched.

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Warren: You brought up another subject. You were there during the protests against
the war. What are your memories of that?
Munger: The most vivid, they were the most beautiful spring days, May, and coming
to work at 8:30 in the morning and seeing two hundred students milling around in front
of Lee Chapel, shouting and carrying on, and this went on. They talked all the time.
Everybody had this sensation, I think, of being alive in a way that hadn't happened
before. I remember one kid coming in and saying, "Washington and Lee has joined the
twentieth century!" [Laughter] There were plenty of people—they didn't come to the
bookstore, I'm sure, but ROTC kids, fraternity types or the big-shot fraternity types, big
men on campus, although some of the big men on campus were the most wonderful
people in participating in this thing, that kept it within limits, although kids would
come and tell me where UVA had hidden dynamite, this kind of thing.

         Whether it was true or not, or rumors, I don't know, but there was a group of the
students themselves, the protesting students, the anti-Vietnam War, who formed a
guard and patrolled the buildings all night as a protection. I remember Jimmy Leyburn
calling me and saying, "When I got up to practice at 5:30 this morning, there they were
with blankets around them, walking the buildings. What are they doing?" They were
protecting Lee Chapel, protecting—the ROTC building was under threat. All of the
porcelain was in the ROTC building, so Washington and Lee was scared to death that
something might go off.
Warren: Who was doing the guarding?
Munger: The protestors themselves set up a group. They also sent a group to
Washington to be trained as marshals for the big march of 500,000 people.
Warren: Who were they afraid might do damage?
Munger: The extremists, as was happening, and threatening to blow up Lee Chapel.
Warren: Extremists within the community?

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Munger: I don't think so. I don't know. UVA was much more—again this is hearsay—
UVA had sent over a couple of people to teach people in the dorms how to make
Molotov cocktails, this kind of thing. It was in the air. So these boys who had been
part—and this was very, very clear to me that the people who had been part of the anti-
war movement for a long time were much more sane, more stable, but the kids who
hopped on the bandwagon at the time of Cambodia, Kent State, were all revved up.

         There was no counseling services or anything. There was David Sprunt, who was
the chaplain. They didn't have anybody. And I got a lot of it. They'd sit on the floor, not
just at the time, but always. There were always two or three kids that I was just being
there for. But during that time there were several. I'm wondering—this is the twenty-
fifth year, I think, '67, '68—I'm wondering whether some of those boys will come back
this year. I know one's coming, because he's coming with his three kids to stay here.

         But they were so hyped up that they were spinning, almost. There was a
sensation. And I would say, "Come back and talk to me in an hour."
Warren: Trying to settle them down?
Munger: Yeah, trying to talk them down. I got done with them at one point, because
they were so busy fighting the faculty decisions. The faculty met practically every day,
if not more than once a day, practically every day. Fighting them, that they forgot about
Vietnam, and it was at the time of the invasion of Cambodia, which [President Richard
M.] Nixon said didn't exist. I got some newsprint, it was regular rolled newspaper stuff,
and got the students to write "Remember Cambodia" and I put it up on the wall,
because it seemed to me that they were getting off the track. It was just something to
add to it.

         I was asked by many kids to write a notice to their draft board, and I always had
one question that I asked, "What would you have done about Hitler?" And then we'd
talk for a while. What they wanted was a statement that they were caring people, not
that they were for or against the war or anything like that. It was just that they were to

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be honored in their opinions. I gladly did that. I would write a statement about them. I
have letters, I have a folder of letters like this, correspondence. I wrote a lot of letters
during that time to the kids who graduated and who had gone to Vietnam. I kept letters
going to them. Many, many of the kids I have kept in touch with over the years. Gosh, a
lot of them turn up and say, "Is Mrs. Munger still alive?" [Laughter]
Warren: I'll get back now and let you free. That last question that I have, it seems to me
that you are in a tradition of a number of very important women at Washington and
Lee, and yet it's supposed to be this male bastion.
Munger: Well, look who they got to give money: Letitia Paige Evans, Jessie Ball
duPont, Miss Parmly. Those buildings.
Warren: Tell me about these women who have made such a difference to Washington
and Lee.
Munger: It's been financial. They never had a faculty member until Pamela Simpson.
Never had a woman faculty member. Mrs. Evans had two children or one son who was
killed in the war. I've forgotten what it was. But they were obviously unfulfilled
women, and they liked the idea, I'm sure, of supporting these attractive young men. I
only saw Miss Parmly once, but I knew Letitia Paige Evans because my mother-in-law
came from Dallas to visit once and she stayed over in Hot Springs with a friend from
Dallas for a week or ten days, and then she came up over here. We went up to have a
drink with Dr. and Mrs. Gaines, who lived in Lee House. Bob's mother said to Frank,
"Frank, there's somebody you ought to meet that I've met over at the Homestead."

         So a week later we got invited to a dinner out at Penn Robin, where the Gaineses
had their summer home, and it was no-holes-barred, it was all the stocks: Mr. [Earl
Stansbury] Mattingly, Jimmy Leyburn, Captain Dick Smith. I've forgotten; there was a
whole batch of them. And Mrs. Evans and Bob's mother. We were invited because of
Bob's mother. Sure enough, got the dining hall. Bob's mother was a smart cookie. She
knew how to play the game.

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Warren: Did Mrs. Evans have no connection with Washington and Lee before that?
Munger: No. Bob's mother told Frank Gaines about her.
Warren: Isn't that fascinating. Was Dr. Gaines—he must have been incredibly charming
to talk these women into doing all this.
Munger: Oh, gosh, yes. He was a charmer. He was the youngest college president in
the United States at the time, I think. Now, Frank may correct me on that. But he was
certainly—yes, he was in his early thirties when he became president of Washington
and Lee, and he was president for—good Lord, nearly thirty years, I guess.
Warren: I know it was a long time.
Munger: But Mrs. duPont, I think, came looking as much as after he husband died, she
was the richest woman in the United States by a long shot, and she had very good
intentions and she set them in motion at Hollins. Dr. Gaines—I don't know whether it
was true or not, but the story was that Dr. Gaines and the president of Hollins, on New
Year's Eve, would call each other up and see how much stock they'd gotten that day
from Mrs. duPont. [Laughter] We got to know Mrs. duPont through Tom Riegel, of the
duPont Awards. He was the executor of the duPont Awards for a good many years,
and we would be in that when she'd come.

         Miss Parmly was just somebody that a grad met in an elevator in their apartment
building in New York.
Warren: Really? Isn't that interesting.
Munger: Or he carried her groceries. I've forgotten. But an elevator figured in there.
Warren: I just know that there are these women, but there are also women like you
who worked there, who did administrative things. Was it a circle of women when you
were there?
Munger: I don't think so.
Warren: Were there other women doing the level of important work?

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Munger: I was the only woman administrator at the time until Pam was made—she
served three years as an assistant dean. But I was the first—Jane Rushing was the first
administrator.
Warren: You were there when Pam came onto the faculty?
Munger: Yes.
Warren: What was that like to have a woman arrive on faculty?
Munger: Well, I just heaved a sigh of relief, and she was tough enough to take it. I
always got a feeling, a very strong feeling, that the bosses who would be in Washington
Hall really didn't—secretaries, yes. You could be a secretary. But a woman
administrator, no go. For instance, the way I learned it, it was quite obvious. All the
college store managers that I knew would be talking about budget-making, and I said,
"Well, I don't have to make a budget." And they'd say, "Well, don't you have a budget?"
And I said, "I don't know." And then I began to ask. "Oh, we just make it for you," they
said.

         And there was one man who I adored, I used to call him the only sane man in
Washington Hall, who would come over almost every day and we would have coffee
together, and once a month he would slip his hand into his coat pocket and pull out the
statement for the past month, so I had some idea about what I was doing. But I never
was invited to a budget meeting until Stewart Epley came on, took Mr. Whitehead's
place as treasurer. I understand he got fired, too, but I don't know. [Laughter]
Warren: Isn't that interesting.
Munger: There was a definite feeling that I probably should be home arranging flowers
on the center of the dining room table, and if they'd ever seen the flowers I arranged,
they wouldn't say so.

         And another experience which still rankles, I must say. There was a big safe up
in this supply store area where Mr. Toll [phonetic] was, and at the time we were selling
the textbooks, for two or three days we were doing three or four— [Brief interruption.]

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         And there were days when we would have seventy and eighty thousand dollars,
having taken it in that day. This bothered me, because they were locking the safe
upstairs before we finished. We'd always have to clear the registers and finish the totals
and be sure it comes out somewhere even. So I asked Mr.—oh, Jerry Darrell was
running it, and I asked him if I could have the combination—I never had been allowed
the combination of the safe—if I could have it, have the combination of the safe, and he
said, "Well, I'll work something out."

         So nothing happened. So I went to Mr. Whitehead and asked him. It's the only
time I ever went over Jerry Darrell's head, but since we were sharing a building and I
considered myself an equal participant in the building, and Jim Whitehead said, "Sure,
sure. I'll speak to Jerry. Don't worry about it. You can get the combination." Because we
would have to put in this money.

         Well, then he called back and he said, "Betty, I want you to know that anytime
you want to get into the big safe over here, you just bring the money on over." He
backed Jerry instead of me.

         So then came the winter book sales, and I had about seventy thousand dollars in
a cardboard box. So he had said, "Just bring it on over. We'll put it in the big safe in the
Washington Hall." So I get over there when we had finished, and I banged my nose on
the locked door, because it was an early leaving because Mr. Whitehead and the rest of
them had gone to a faculty meeting, and I brought that money back. I had the flu, I had
a temperature of 101, I was not going to run the risk of taking it home, and I went back
and I hid it in that building. You know, what it was was that, "Even though she's listed
in the catalog as an administrator, women don't know how to handle money," or
something or other.

         But when Stewart Epley came, he treated me like a partner in the business of
running the bookstore.
Warren: Well, that's a really interesting story.

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Munger: Yep.
Warren: That's a very interesting story.
Munger: I'm afraid Mr. Whitehead and I never got along very well. For one thing, I
don't like bosses; I like partners, you know. And he didn't like—we just didn't get
along. One time I spoke up for the little people on campus. [Laughter] I'll never forget
it. I couldn't believe my ears. It was like talking into a velvet cushion. It was just
hopeless, to make him understand what I meant, and he said, "Betty, I agree with you
absolutely. That's why I make it a point of always speaking to the grounds crew." It
was elitist. It was "we happy few." I suggested—oh, yeah, that was the time I thought
that the trustees might like to know who ran their textbook when I wasn't running it.
And she was lousy. I said, "You know, I would think the trustees would like to see the
little people who do the work." And goodness knows, it's perfectly obvious that every
department's secretary, every secretary runs the business, whatever business it is. And I
said something to Jim. Particularly I thought—oh, that lovely Poindexter gal, black gal.
Warren: I didn't know her.
Munger: She was Jim Whitehead's secretary for a while. Then she moved somewhere
else and she died. She was young. I thought, "Wouldn't they like to know her?" I didn't
really—it was conversation. And Bob knew so much more about art than Jim
Whitehead did. It was ridiculous.
Warren: I have taken up lots of your time. I am really grateful.
Munger: Well, goodness. I don't know whether I've told you what you want to hear.
Warren: I'm really, really pleased with our interview.
Munger: Good.
Warren: I think it's been just fine. Thank you.
Munger: Good. My mother always—
[End of interview]

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