Murray interview [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Warren: During Fancy Dress, aren't there things going on all over the place? Murray: The dance, it's all in the gym, but then after the dance is over, they have the fireworks, which they always did do, and then they go to the fraternity houses, but by that time so many of them had partied out and was ready to go to bed. Because on Friday night, see, they always had a concert on Friday night and they were pretty well wore out, so they went to bed. Some of them didn't, but you'd have to get after some of them still running around. Warren: I'll bet you were glad when it was over. Murray: I was, because I was on the move for seventy-two hours, because, see, they start on Thursday night. After they got the pavilion over there, they'd start having a concert on Thursday night and the dance on Friday night. I meant Friday night they had the dance. Then by that time they was pretty well wore out and they finally went to bed. I suspect in that seventy-two hours, I was sometimes lucky to get as many as three or four hours' sleep, because I was on the move all the time. I still can't think of that other story I wanted to tell. I hate to get old. [Laughter] Your mind slips. Warren: Well, mine's already giving out. How about when the students were in costumes? How did you know who was who? Could you tell with their faces covered up? Murray: They very seldom did that. Most of the time, lots of time, best part of the time they were all in tuxedos. They used to have this thing in the dining hall when it first started out, and then after they got the new gym built, then they moved it over there, because the dining hall had gotten too small for that group, so they took it over there. 17 Warren: How about the other big event that happens, not quite as often, but Mock Convention? You had a lot of big names on campus then. Murray: Yeah, we did, but we never had any problems. Warren: Did you have to get involved in security? Murray: Oh, yeah, we was always around. Like the time they brought Oliver North here. Of course, he had a son and a daughter here then. So my wife and I took one of the station wagons and went up to Roanoke to pick him up. He didn't come in the big airport, he come in over at that small one in a private plane, and he had these two armed guards with him. I tried to tell him, I said, "You have nothing to worry about." "Oh, no, we've got to be there with these weapons." I said, "Well, suit yourself, but you don't have anything to worry about, because these kids aren't going to bother him or say anything to him." "How do you know?" I said, "I know." And nobody did. So next time he came back, I don't think he had any armed guard with him. Warren: So he had a son and daughter who went here? Murray: Yeah. Graduated from here, yeah. Warren: I didn't know that. Murray: She was a nice kid and he was a good boy. They both graduated. Warren: I didn't realize that. That's interesting. There have been a lot of famous people who've come through here. Does that complicate the job of security? Murray: No, all we do is just be around. Like when he was here, they had a state trooper and a couple of city policemen in there. Of course, the state trooper was in civilian clothes, but he was armed. Just like the time, you know, Coach Fallon was a wonderful man, and he was an ex-Marine, too, and so was I. So he was looking for girl managers for the football team and I told him about her coming through here, and so he said, "Reckon she'd like to be a 18 manager?" So she comes in the matriculation line. Burr Datz was working with me at that time, had taken her car. I said, "Was that her?" He said, "Yes." So I called her back. She'd already signed up to be a soccer manager. I said, "Would you like to be a football manager?" She said, "Yeah." I said, "Go see Coach Fallon." So she did, and after a lot of people found out she was here, Coach Fallon told her, he said, "I'll tell you, if you have any problems around here, you come get Murph and I, we'll take care of it." So nobody ever bothered her. Warren: Who is this? Murray: Oliver North's daughter. Warren: Oliver North's daughter. That's what I thought you meant. I just wanted to be sure. Murray: So we didn't have any problems. Warren: Oh, no, I would think the students would be very welcoming to her here. Murray: They did, because a lot of people, lot of students here liked him. Nobody heckled him that night or nothing. Warren: How about when somebody like, this year it was Dan Quayle, but did you have Secret Service coming around very often? Murray: If they were here. Warren: You were here when Truman was here in 1960. Murray: Yeah. I was here when Barkley died over in the gym, too. Warren: What do you remember about that? Murray: I don't know, I was over in town, I was still a policeman then. I was over in town and I found out about it, so we come over, and they pronounced him dead on the stand. 19 Then one time I was getting ready for some kind of, I don't know whether it was Mock Convention or what it was, and got a bomb call. So I went over there practically by myself and searched that whole building, and we never could find any bomb. Warren: I heard about that. I'm trying to remember what year that was. Murray: That was in the sixties. Warren: I've heard about that. Murray: Only we never could find one. Warren: Was that exciting, searching for a bomb? Murray: I didn't know if it was in there. I didn't what time it might blow up, but there wasn't anything in there. Warren: We've had all kinds of people come here. Barry Goldwater. You name it, they've been here. Murray: [Bill] Clinton. Warren: Were you there when he played his saxophone? Murray: At Zollman's Pavilion? Warren: Yes. Murray: No, I didn't mess around there too much. Warren: You don't go out to Zollman's, or didn't go? Murray: No, I didn't go that night, a couple other men went. One night they was having the senior party at Zollman's, and this student who was the president of the activities board, said there was going to be a lot of people coming there that night not wanting to pay to get in, pay their dues, they hadn't paid them. So Steve and I went out there, and Tommy was over in the crowd, and I think between Steve and I we collected over three thousand dollars for them for those guys to pay for all that stuff. Even had VMI cadets out there out of uniform, because they always come back and start summer school before we get out. They said let them in, so we charged them five dollars apiece to get in, and they didn't mind. 20 Warren: Good deal for five dollars. Murray: I think when all told we had over three thousand dollars we collected. Warren: So I went to a party at Zollman's during Alumni Weekend. That's a long twisty road getting out there. Murray: Yeah. It's a bad road, especially when somebody's drinking. Warren: Did you ever come upon a situation? Murray: What? Warren: An accident, come and seen? Murray: Oh, yes. Warren: Tell me about that. Murray: Well, I've seen some bad ones where guys got hurt pretty bad. They was lucky they didn't get killed. Had a drunk that died in my arms one night years and years ago. He stepped out in the street and one of these old Dodges, you know how the ram used to sit upon the old Dodge, a ram head? It hit him right here in the chest, and he died in my arms. He wasn't a student, he was some local person. Warren: I guess it's not only Zollman's, there are a lot of students who live out in the country houses, too. Murray: Oh, yeah, a lot of them live everywhere, and you can't do much about it either, because there's too much territory to try to cover. Warren: So if you know that there's a student party happening out at country houses, can you get involved in that? Murray: When I first came here, I had the authority anywhere in town, if there was a party going on and it got rowdy, I had the authority to break it up. Warren: But not out in the county? Murray: No, we didn't go in the county too much. My orders read, "Wherever students live and operate." Warren: "Where students operate," that's interesting. What does that mean? 21 Murray: That's what Dean Gilliam had in there, "Where students live and operate." But that went on for quite a few years with the strict rules, and they finally broke away from it in the late seventies. At that time, the school did not have as much authority over these fraternity houses, they had always left it up to the nationals, but since the school has renovated and own them now, they've got more authority over them. They got them where it hurts. Warren: What do you mean by that? Murray: [Laughter] Grab them where it hurts, they just can do most anything with them they want to if they do wrong. Just like Dr. Wilson, he wouldn't put up with that stuff. I remember one night when the Phi Gams, Phi Psi house hadn't been renovated yet, and so two of the Phi Psis come out. SAE House had been renovated. Two Phi Psis come out and begins to throw empty bottles. So they broke a window, and it happened to be in the housemother's room and she was in there. I think SAE started it, because they had fixed the house, messed that house up, broke out a couple of windows, and they come out and retaliated. So one night it drug on and drug on, and the boy that was the president of the Phi Psi at that time, he wanted to handle it internally and Dr. Wilson couldn't see it that way. So he waited and he waited and he called up to the office one day and he said, "Murph, I want you to find out who these people are." So I heard some information about one name, just the first name. I got the first name. So I got my facebook out, my yearbook out, and I looked at it, and he was only boy in that fraternity that had that first name, so I approached him, and he owned up to it. I said, "Who was your partner?" He was a football player and the other one was a baseball player. I said, "Okay." I already knew who the SAE was, so I told Dr. Wilson and he said, "Well, I've given them enough time and they won't cooperate with me, they won't tell me who they are." I said, "Well, here are their names." 22 He said, "I want you to go out to each fraternity house and tell them I want to see them." This was the last six weeks of school. So I did. I went to the SAE House first and I told this boy, I found him and I said, "Dr. Wilson wants to see you." "Well, I'll see him tomorrow." I said, "I didn't say tomorrow, I says today." I said, "You better get over there." So he did. I went over to the next house and told them the same thing. So I had to go get one of them off the baseball field. So that night by six o'clock, all three of them was on their way home for the simple reason that they didn't cooperate with him and he decided to fix them, and he did. He sent them home for the last six weeks of school. Warren: So they weren't really expelled, they were— Murray: Suspended for the last six weeks. Warren: That's dramatic. Murray: There was another one, a Phi Gam, I think he was, that lived near Woods Creek, some girl there was all shook up that he'd been harassing her, calling her on the telephone. So I was down at VMI watching the lacrosse game, and my pager went off. I was watching Washington and Lee play, and it was the minority dean wanting me to go down there. So I went on down there, and she just put one of my men in the place with her, and I told him, I said, "Listen, you get back out of here on your beat." So I asked the young lady, I says, "Has this boy been here in your room and knocking on your door bothering you?" She says, "No, just calling on the telephone." So I told Sam, I said, "Get on back out on your beat." I called Dr. Wilson and told him what she said, what was going on, and then he said, "I want to see that young man." 23 So just as I left her apartment and started back out, here he come, going up to get dressed for the big party that night, and I told him, I said, "Dr. Wilson wants to see you." He said, "Okay." So I went back upstairs and I told him and he says, "That's not what I want, Murph. You tell that boy to get the hell up here right now." [Laughter] I said, "Yes, sir." So I went and I told Sam, I said, "Sam, take him up to Dr. Wilson's house." That night he was gone home. Warren: So Wilson had a pretty strict— Murray: He didn't like this foolishness. He didn't like it one bit. Warren: Was that a change from previous administrations? Murray: Who did he replace? Dr. Huntley? Warren: Yes. Murray: No, Dr. Huntley was a pretty strict man, too. The one before that, it was Dr. Cole. Of course, he's passed on now. He always called me "Sheriff." Warren: Sheriff. That's great. Murray: I’d be standing out there in the parking lot, right after lunch. He was a great handball player, loved to play handball. Never wore gloves. I'd be out there watching traffic and he'd come along and say, "Hey, Sheriff, what are you doing?" I said, "Just watching traffic." He said, "Come on, let's go." He'd take me and make me play handball with him. He was something. Called me Sheriff. Warren: Tell me about Dr. Cole. I don't know much about him. Murray: He was a wonderful man and I really enjoyed him. He was a down-to-earth man. One time we was over there getting ready to play handball about one o'clock, it was four of us going to play, and one of the deans was in there, I'm not going to 24 mention his name, and he said, "Well, I've got something to talk to you." Dr. Cole smoked cigarettes. He'd always sit around and he'd get to thinking and he'd rub his nose like this. And he started talking business, and he looked at him and he said, "Well, I'm going to tell you something, when I'm getting ready to play handball, I don't want to talk business. We'll talk later." [Laughter] We used to have some times. I learned a lot while I was over here. I only had a high school education, but I feel like I graduated from here. Warren: Well, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that, because you might as well have. Murray: They made me an honorary alumnus. I was the first one. Warren: I know that, and I would like to hear you tell me about that. Murray: Well, it kind of surprised me. My wife knew about it, but I didn't. She wouldn't tell me. So Brian Williams called at the house and told her to tell me he wanted me down there at that morning's alumni, they were having the alumni meeting in there. She said, "Why don't you put on some decent clothes." I just wore my blue blazer with my security patch on. I said, "Well, if he wants me to work, I'm not going down there all dressed up in a suit. I'm going to wear what I normally wear." She said, "All right, suit yourself." So I went back there, and I was told to sit in the back row. I was inside looking around, and I thought something big was going to happen. So they went all through all this stuff, about how much people give, and what class and how much they give. Then this very good friend of mine who was a lawyer in Roanoke, James Adams—I believe that's his name. I know his first name is James. He said, "I have one more thing," and he got to reading off all this stuff, and he got about middle ways and I caught on. I said, "He's talking about me." He said all that stuff, and he made us come up to the stage, and gave my wife a dozen red roses, and he gave me this plaque that made me an 25 honorary alumnus. I leaned over and said to the speaker, I said, "I'm not a speech- maker." If I'd have stood there and tried to say something, I don't what would have happened. They all laughed Then I got a Pusey Award later on. Dr. Wilson was there. He said, "Hey, Murph." I said, "Yes." He said, "What are you trying to do, take everything home?" I said, "No, I don't think so." [Laughter] Warren: Well, when I heard that, I thought that was so cool. Murray: What, to make me an alumnus, honorary alumnus? Yeah, I thought it was real nice. Also I got the Lynchburg Citation, too. Warren: Really. Murray: Yeah. Warren: Boy, that's impressive. Murray: I knew all those people over there, too. Warren: Tell me what the Lynchburg Citation is. Murray: It's something that they honor some alumnus, or outstanding person in their group, they name one every year. So they named me one year. Warren: I've heard about the Lynchburg Citation for a long time. Murray: I've got it hanging on my wall at home. I got a picture of Robert E. Lee on Traveller, I had it in my office, and I paid to have it framed and everything, and I didn't want to leave it in there, so I took it. It was so big I couldn't find anyplace to put it, so I got it in my garage, so as I pull the car in, I can see it every day. Warren: Well, that's a good reminder of the Washington and Lee gentleman supreme. Murray: Yeah. I've had some times over here, good and bad, but mostly good, thank goodness. Like I told you, I never liked seeing any student get in trouble, but sometimes you have to get them in trouble if they don't do right. You were talking 26 about honor violations. I'm not proud of it, but I suspect maybe twenty in all got kicked out of here. Warren: In thirty years that sounds about right. Murray: Well, I wasn't proud of it, but it was something I had to do. I miss the job, but I don't miss prowling around all hours of the night like I used to. Warren: Is your wife glad to have you home? Murray: Yeah, she wants to know where I am every five minutes. Warren: She must have been an awfully patient lady all those years. Murray: Maybe that's why we never had any children, because I never was at home. Been married fifty-two years this past April. Warren: That's quite a record. She earned those roses. [Laughter] Murray: [Laughter] Yeah. Just like my wife said in the alumni magazine the time they had us both in there, "Maybe when he retires, he'll know the way home." I can't go anywhere now that she don't go with me. I guess she wants to keep an eye on me, because we both had slight heart attacks, so they say. I'm taking medicine now. Look where I just barely bumped my hand and I bruise. From taking that Coumadin blood thinner. The doctor says on account I have an irregular heartbeat. It never showed up when I was playing all that handball. Warren: You know one person we really didn't talk much about is President Huntley. What was he like? Murray: He was a real smart man. He handled things real well around here, especially back with that Vietnam thing, and they called off school or something like that, and he handled it very well. Warren: Were you involved in that? Murray: Oh, yes, I was there every time they had a meeting. What was that boy's name that back in those days was leading this thing around here? Warren: Jeff Gingold. 27 Murray: Oh, yeah. So one night he come to me, and I found out that they were going to burn things around here that night, do things, go to bring a bunch of guys over from the University of Virginia. Then later on that day, he come told me somebody stole his stereo equipment. I said, "I'll make a deal with you, Jeff. You don't cause me any problems or any trouble tonight, I'll get your stereo back." He says, "It's a deal." I got it back. Warren: How'd you do that? Murray: Found out who had it. The boy had to go all the way back to D.C. to get it, but he got it and brought it back to us. Warren: Was this a— Murray: A local. Warren: A local Lexington person? Murray: Yes. Warren: Or a local student? Murray: Local Lexington person had stole his stereo equipment. Warren: Was it just a coincidence that it was Jeff Gingold's stereo? Murray: I don't know, but anyway, we had no problems that night. I said, "I'll make a deal with you," and he said, "Okay." Warren: So much did you have to pay this guy to steal Jeff Gingold's stereo? [Laughter] Murray: [Laughter] I didn't pay him anything. I didn't pay him anything. He took it and we got it back, so we didn't have any problems. Warren: You are amazing. You know, one person told me that you were the moral center of Washington and Lee. Murray: Well, I'm proud of that. Just like Dr. Wilson said, I got all kinds of recommendation letters at home from a man who’s the head of a school in Lynchburg, had his daughter up here, and one night he had an emergency, he had to find her, and 28 he couldn't find her, so I met with him and took him to where she was, and he took her on back home to Lynchburg. He wrote Dr. Wilson the nicest letter you ever saw about saying it was nice to have people, a security man, that would go out of his way to help somebody and he appreciated it very much. Dr. Wilson sent me a copy of it. Warren: When did you get help? When did it stop being just Murph? Murray: Let's see. I started out with one man. At the time I had three men here doing the punch clocks and checking the buildings, but they wasn't under me at that time. So I hired another man, who was an ex-policeman, and he handled all the parties and stuff, but we didn't have anything to do with that. Then they got the idea to let me handle the whole thing, so they put it under me. Let's see. There was Herman and I, and there was three nightmen, then they had four. So then it stayed that way for a while, just to cover the campus, while I covered the streets, Herman and I. Then we went on and we got larger in the following years where we had to be around twenty-four hours a day, so we got larger. When I left there was twelve people, counting myself. I don't know how many he has now, thirteen or fourteen, counting himself. We never had any problems. Warren: It's pretty miraculous given how many people there are. How did you know everybody by name? Murray: I don't know. Well, like when these reunions come up, I got stacks and stacks of Calyxes at home, and every reunion class that comes up, I get that book and look at it, just to refresh me. I know the faces real well, and it's just refresh myself with the book, and so when they come around they say, "I'm So-and-So," "I know who you are," and all that. So I always was pretty good at remembering faces and stuff. Anyway, I guess all those years of work paid off. Warren: I guess they have, Murph. You are a special person. Murray: I hope so. [Laughter] Anyway, I enjoyed it. But as you get older, I'm seventy- five now, and as you get older you've got to slow down. I didn't want to retire when I 29 retired. I retired at sixty-nine and a half. I think I'd been seventy the following November, but I decided to hang it up, because I kept getting these letters from retirement we’re in over here, kind of discouraging, wanting a retirement date. I filled out one of those the other day at the bank. The last one I got says, "If you don't give us a retirement date, you're going to start drawing this money by the time you're seventy or so, seventy and a half," say the federal government will step in and take 50 percent of it. I said to heck with that. Warren: That's an incentive, isn't it? [Laughter] Oh, my gosh. Murray: That's what it says, the federal government will step in and take 50 percent of your savings, retirement. Warren: Well, that would move me to action, too. Murray: Yeah, it did me. Warren: Well, is there anything else you would like to talk about? This has just been marvelous. I'm so glad we got together. Murray: I don't know, there's a lot of things that just won't come to me right now. Another thing, this had been in the eighties, they called me at home one night, said there's a bomb in the elevator in this building. So I come over here, I was by myself, I looked at that thing, and looked at it and looked at it, up underneath, down there, everywhere else, and I couldn't find anything. So about two days later, I was heading back toward the library, and this young man stopped me out there at the wall and he said, "Murph." I said, "Yeah." He said, "I know you're working on something." I said, "You do?" He says, "Before you do anything else, I just want to tell you that I did it. I was drunk that night and didn't realize what I was doing." I said, "Well, I thank you very much." 30 So that's when Dean John was still dean, he asked me—I went over there to tell him. I said, "Well, I found out who the young man was who said he put a bomb in the elevator." "Who was it?" I said, "Well, I'm going to tell you something. Being as that young man was honest enough and had guts enough to come face me and tell me he did it. I'm not going to tell you," and I didn't. Warren: That seems true to the Washington and Lee way. Murray: Yeah. So he never questioned me any more on it. I don't think we've had a bomb threat since. Oh, well. Warren: What about when black students started attending? Were there ever any problems then? Murray: Well, it was mainly—not with our own students, it was mainly local. I remember one night down there, there was a boy, he was in high school at that time, he was a pretty good athlete in high school, and he was down there drunk, and there was seven or eight of these young black men that were standing there. And I had their respect, too. This boy kept on running his mouth, and I told him he better get going before I'll have him locked up. He said, "You're just jealous of me because I'm a football player." He was still in high school. I said, "Listen, son, I played football before you was ever born." Those black boys, they was just waiting for him to start something, and he left. They all walked around the corner with me and said, "We was waiting on you, Murph." I didn't have any problems with them. I helped them just as much as I did the white students. Warren: You were there to protect you, did you know that? I had them tell me that story. Murray: The black students? 31 Warren: Yes. Murray: Yeah. Warren: One of them told me that story, and they said that you were so good to them that they were going to make sure you were okay, too. Murray: Yeah. One night—we used to have some kind of concerts over in the dining hall. This University of Virginia student boy in there and he come outside. I heard some glass break, I didn't know who it was, I couldn't figure it. Some W&L students said, "Well, whoever did it went back in there, Murph." So I went in there and I found this guy, his hand was bleeding, so I brought him outside and he wanted to get smart, and I grabbed him up in the collar and he took a swing at me. He didn't hurt me, because he was pretty well drunk. A little small student, I can't think of his name, and there was four or five more come around and he said, "Did you see what that guy did to Murph?" And all five of them jumped on him. [Laughter] I had to get them off. So the police come along about that time and I had him locked up. They didn't bother the students. I told them they was just helping me. I'll tell you, times, times. But it seemed if I had any problem, most of them was already ready to back me up. Of course, the kids nowadays are not. They're a little different now than they were then, in my opinion. Warren: What do you mean? Murray: I mean most of them don't care about anything, and they don't care who sees them, anything. But a lot of those kids back in those days was a little more quiet about what they did. Now they're open with it. Warren: Times keep changing. Murray: Yeah, I know that. Every day. Warren: Well, I'm just about at the end of my tape. Should I pop in another one? Do you have anything more you want to say? 32 Murray: [Laughter] Oh, there's quite a few things. Getting back to the Honor System, I was having problems over in Gilliam Dorm, and we got a-hold of some of this powder that you can't see it unless you use ultraviolet light. I went down to VMI and had the chief of security down there put it on there for me and put it in a billfold and close it up and it laid in this boy's room. There was two boys in there, and he'd been missing money. So I asked him, told him what I was going to do, and I told him to stay away from his room. So he did. I noticed his roommate come in, went in and pulled the shade down, and stayed in there four or five minutes and he came out. So I went in to see if the money was still in the billfold and it was, but it had been moved. I moved it and it was. So the boy called me, he said, "Murph, somebody moved my billfold." I said, "I did, because I saw a person go in there and I wanted to see if he took the money." So the next day he did take it. Warren: And it was his roommate? Murray: Uh-huh. So they called me and I got the head dorm counselor mixed up in it, so he stayed down there in the room and I went over to the library and found this kid, took him back over there. I asked him, I said, "Do you have any money on you?" He said, "No, sir." I said, "You sure you don't?" He said, "No, sir." I said, "Do you mind putting your hands under this light?" He said, "No." He put it under the light and it lit up like a Christmas tree. He even had it on shirt pocket where he'd stuck it down his shirt pocket. So the E.C. found him guilty and he appealed it. They had an open hearing, and I went down there, and they was trying to say that that powder flew everywhere, and I said, "Do you remember during the trial when we put that bottle of stuff on the money and put it in the billfold and banged it on the desk like this? Then I run the light over it 33 and there wasn't any on the desk." So they found him guilty, [unclear], found him guilty. Warren: Boy, he had chutzpah, didn't he? Murray: That's something I'm not proud of, but I just wasn't going to let him get away with it. Warren: You sure can't. Let me put in another tape. for seventy-two hours, because, see, they start on Thursday night. After they got the pavilion over there, they'd start having a concert on Thursday night and the dance on Friday night. I meant Friday night they had the dance. Then by that time they was pretty well wore out and they finally went to bed. I suspect in that seventy-two hours, I was sometimes lucky to get as many as three or four hours' sleep, because I was on the move all the time. I still can't think of that other story I wanted to tell. I hate to get old. [Laughter] Your mind slips. Warren: Well, mine's already giving out. How about when the students were in costumes? How did you know who was who? Could you tell with their faces covered up? Murray: They very seldom did that. Most of the time, lots of time, best part of the time they were all in tuxedos. They used to have this thing in the dining hall when it first started out, and then after they got the new gym built, then they moved it over there, because the dining hall had gotten too small for that group, so they took it over there. 17 Warren: How about the other big event that happens, not quite as often, but Mock Convention? You had a lot of big names on campus then. Murray: Yeah, we did, but we never had any problems. Warren: Did you have to get involved in security? Murray: Oh, yeah, we was always around. Like the time they brought Oliver North here. Of course, he had a son and a daughter here then. So my wife and I took one of the station wagons and went up to Roanoke to pick him up. He didn't come in the big airport, he come in over at that small one in a private plane, and he had these two armed guards with him. I tried to tell him, I said, "You have nothing to worry about." "Oh, no, we've got to be there with these weapons." I said, "Well, suit yourself, but you don't have anything to worry about, because these kids aren't going to bother him or say anything to him." "How do you know?" I said, "I know." And nobody did. So next time he came back, I don't think he had any armed guard with him. Warren: So he had a son and daughter who went here? Murray: Yeah. Graduated from here, yeah. Warren: I didn't know that. Murray: She was a nice kid and he was a good boy. They both graduated. Warren: I didn't realize that. That's interesting. There have been a lot of famous people who've come through here. Does that complicate the job of security? Murray: No, all we do is just be around. Like when he was here, they had a state trooper and a couple of city policemen in there. Of course, the state trooper was in civilian clothes, but he was armed. Just like the time, you know, Coach Fallon was a wonderful man, and he was an ex-Marine, too, and so was I. So he was looking for girl managers for the football team and I told him about her coming through here, and so he said, "Reckon she'd like to be a 18 manager?" So she comes in the matriculation line. Burr Datz was working with me at that time, had taken her car. I said, "Was that her?" He said, "Yes." So I called her back. She'd already signed up to be a soccer manager. I said, "Would you like to be a football manager?" She said, "Yeah." I said, "Go see Coach Fallon." So she did, and after a lot of people found out she was here, Coach Fallon told her, he said, "I'll tell you, if you have any problems around here, you come get Murph and I, we'll take care of it." So nobody ever bothered her. Warren: Who is this? Murray: Oliver North's daughter. Warren: Oliver North's daughter. That's what I thought you meant. I just wanted to be sure. Murray: So we didn't have any problems. Warren: Oh, no, I would think the students would be very welcoming to her here. Murray: They did, because a lot of people, lot of students here liked him. Nobody heckled him that night or nothing. Warren: How about when somebody like, this year it was Dan Quayle, but did you have Secret Service coming around very often? Murray: If they were here. Warren: You were here when Truman was here in 1960. Murray: Yeah. I was here when Barkley died over in the gym, too. Warren: What do you remember about that? Murray: I don't know, I was over in town, I was still a policeman then. I was over in town and I found out about it, so we come over, and they pronounced him dead on the stand. 19 Then one time I was getting ready for some kind of, I don't know whether it was Mock Convention or what it was, and got a bomb call. So I went over there practically by myself and searched that whole building, and we never could find any bomb. Warren: I heard about that. I'm trying to remember what year that was. Murray: That was in the sixties. Warren: I've heard about that. Murray: Only we never could find one. Warren: Was that exciting, searching for a bomb? Murray: I didn't know if it was in there. I didn't what time it might blow up, but there wasn't anything in there. Warren: We've had all kinds of people come here. Barry Goldwater. You name it, they've been here. Murray: [Bill] Clinton. Warren: Were you there when he played his saxophone? Murray: At Zollman's Pavilion? Warren: Yes. Murray: No, I didn't mess around there too much. Warren: You don't go out to Zollman's, or didn't go? Murray: No, I didn't go that night, a couple other men went. One night they was having the senior party at Zollman's, and this student who was the president of the activities board, said there was going to be a lot of people coming there that night not wanting to pay to get in, pay their dues, they hadn't paid them. So Steve and I went out there, and Tommy was over in the crowd, and I think between Steve and I we collected over three thousand dollars for them for those guys to pay for all that stuff. Even had VMI cadets out there out of uniform, because they always come back and start summer school before we get out. They said let them in, so we charged them five dollars apiece to get in, and they didn't mind. 20 Warren: Good deal for five dollars. Murray: I think when all told we had over three thousand dollars we collected. Warren: So I went to a party at Zollman's during Alumni Weekend. That's a long twisty road getting out there. Murray: Yeah. It's a bad road, especially when somebody's drinking. Warren: Did you ever come upon a situation? Murray: What? Warren: An accident, come and seen? Murray: Oh, yes. Warren: Tell me about that. Murray: Well, I've seen some bad ones where guys got hurt pretty bad. They was lucky they didn't get killed. Had a drunk that died in my arms one night years and years ago. He stepped out in the street and one of these old Dodges, you know how the ram used to sit upon the old Dodge, a ram head? It hit him right here in the chest, and he died in my arms. He wasn't a student, he was some local person. Warren: I guess it's not only Zollman's, there are a lot of students who live out in the country houses, too. Murray: Oh, yeah, a lot of them live everywhere, and you can't do much about it either, because there's too much territory to try to cover. Warren: So if you know that there's a student party happening out at country houses, can you get involved in that? Murray: When I first came here, I had the authority anywhere in town, if there was a party going on and it got rowdy, I had the authority to break it up. Warren: But not out in the county? Murray: No, we didn't go in the county too much. My orders read, "Wherever students live and operate." Warren: "Where students operate," that's interesting. What does that mean? 21 Murray: That's what Dean Gilliam had in there, "Where students live and operate." But that went on for quite a few years with the strict rules, and they finally broke away from it in the late seventies. At that time, the school did not have as much authority over these fraternity houses, they had always left it up to the nationals, but since the school has renovated and own them now, they've got more authority over them. They got them where it hurts. Warren: What do you mean by that? Murray: [Laughter] Grab them where it hurts, they just can do most anything with them they want to if they do wrong. Just like Dr. Wilson, he wouldn't put up with that stuff. I remember one night when the Phi Gams, Phi Psi house hadn't been renovated yet, and so two of the Phi Psis come out. SAE House had been renovated. Two Phi Psis come out and begins to throw empty bottles. So they broke a window, and it happened to be in the housemother's room and she was in there. I think SAE started it, because they had fixed the house, messed that house up, broke out a couple of windows, and they come out and retaliated. So one night it drug on and drug on, and the boy that was the president of the Phi Psi at that time, he wanted to handle it internally and Dr. Wilson couldn't see it that way. So he waited and he waited and he called up to the office one day and he said, "Murph, I want you to find out who these people are." So I heard some information about one name, just the first name. I got the first name. So I got my facebook out, my yearbook out, and I looked at it, and he was only boy in that fraternity that had that first name, so I approached him, and he owned up to it. I said, "Who was your partner?" He was a football player and the other one was a baseball player. I said, "Okay." I already knew who the SAE was, so I told Dr. Wilson and he said, "Well, I've given them enough time and they won't cooperate with me, they won't tell me who they are." I said, "Well, here are their names." 22 He said, "I want you to go out to each fraternity house and tell them I want to see them." This was the last six weeks of school. So I did. I went to the SAE House first and I told this boy, I found him and I said, "Dr. Wilson wants to see you." "Well, I'll see him tomorrow." I said, "I didn't say tomorrow, I says today." I said, "You better get over there." So he did. I went over to the next house and told them the same thing. So I had to go get one of them off the baseball field. So that night by six o'clock, all three of them was on their way home for the simple reason that they didn't cooperate with him and he decided to fix them, and he did. He sent them home for the last six weeks of school. Warren: So they weren't really expelled, they were— Murray: Suspended for the last six weeks. Warren: That's dramatic. Murray: There was another one, a Phi Gam, I think he was, that lived near Woods Creek, some girl there was all shook up that he'd been harassing her, calling her on the telephone. So I was down at VMI watching the lacrosse game, and my pager went off. I was watching Washington and Lee play, and it was the minority dean wanting me to go down there. So I went on down there, and she just put one of my men in the place with her, and I told him, I said, "Listen, you get back out of here on your beat." So I asked the young lady, I says, "Has this boy been here in your room and knocking on your door bothering you?" She says, "No, just calling on the telephone." So I told Sam, I said, "Get on back out on your beat." I called Dr. Wilson and told him what she said, what was going on, and then he said, "I want to see that young man." 23 So just as I left her apartment and started back out, here he come, going up to get dressed for the big party that night, and I told him, I said, "Dr. Wilson wants to see you." He said, "Okay." So I went back upstairs and I told him and he says, "That's not what I want, Murph. You tell that boy to get the hell up here right now." [Laughter] I said, "Yes, sir." So I went and I told Sam, I said, "Sam, take him up to Dr. Wilson's house." That night he was gone home. Warren: So Wilson had a pretty strict— Murray: He didn't like this foolishness. He didn't like it one bit. Warren: Was that a change from previous administrations? Murray: Who did he replace? Dr. Huntley? Warren: Yes. Murray: No, Dr. Huntley was a pretty strict man, too. The one before that, it was Dr. Cole. Of course, he's passed on now. He always called me "Sheriff." Warren: Sheriff. That's great. Murray: I’d be standing out there in the parking lot, right after lunch. He was a great handball player, loved to play handball. Never wore gloves. I'd be out there watching traffic and he'd come along and say, "Hey, Sheriff, what are you doing?" I said, "Just watching traffic." He said, "Come on, let's go." He'd take me and make me play handball with him. He was something. Called me Sheriff. Warren: Tell me about Dr. Cole. I don't know much about him. Murray: He was a wonderful man and I really enjoyed him. He was a down-to-earth man. One time we was over there getting ready to play handball about one o'clock, it was four of us going to play, and one of the deans was in there, I'm not going to 24 mention his name, and he said, "Well, I've got something to talk to you." Dr. Cole smoked cigarettes. He'd always sit around and he'd get to thinking and he'd rub his nose like this. And he started talking business, and he looked at him and he said, "Well, I'm going to tell you something, when I'm getting ready to play handball, I don't want to talk business. We'll talk later." [Laughter] We used to have some times. I learned a lot while I was over here. I only had a high school education, but I feel like I graduated from here. Warren: Well, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that, because you might as well have. Murray: They made me an honorary alumnus. I was the first one. Warren: I know that, and I would like to hear you tell me about that. Murray: Well, it kind of surprised me. My wife knew about it, but I didn't. She wouldn't tell me. So Brian Williams called at the house and told her to tell me he wanted me down there at that morning's alumni, they were having the alumni meeting in there. She said, "Why don't you put on some decent clothes." I just wore my blue blazer with my security patch on. I said, "Well, if he wants me to work, I'm not going down there all dressed up in a suit. I'm going to wear what I normally wear." She said, "All right, suit yourself." So I went back there, and I was told to sit in the back row. I was inside looking around, and I thought something big was going to happen. So they went all through all this stuff, about how much people give, and what class and how much they give. Then this very good friend of mine who was a lawyer in Roanoke, James Adams—I believe that's his name. I know his first name is James. He said, "I have one more thing," and he got to reading off all this stuff, and he got about middle ways and I caught on. I said, "He's talking about me." He said all that stuff, and he made us come up to the stage, and gave my wife a dozen red roses, and he gave me this plaque that made me an 25 honorary alumnus. I leaned over and said to the speaker, I said, "I'm not a speech- maker." If I'd have stood there and tried to say something, I don't what would have happened. They all laughed Then I got a Pusey Award later on. Dr. Wilson was there. He said, "Hey, Murph." I said, "Yes." He said, "What are you trying to do, take everything home?" I said, "No, I don't think so." [Laughter] Warren: Well, when I heard that, I thought that was so cool. Murray: What, to make me an alumnus, honorary alumnus? Yeah, I thought it was real nice. Also I got the Lynchburg Citation, too. Warren: Really. Murray: Yeah. Warren: Boy, that's impressive. Murray: I knew all those people over there, too. Warren: Tell me what the Lynchburg Citation is. Murray: It's something that they honor some alumnus, or outstanding person in their group, they name one every year. So they named me one year. Warren: I've heard about the Lynchburg Citation for a long time. Murray: I've got it hanging on my wall at home. I got a picture of Robert E. Lee on Traveller, I had it in my office, and I paid to have it framed and everything, and I didn't want to leave it in there, so I took it. It was so big I couldn't find anyplace to put it, so I got it in my garage, so as I pull the car in, I can see it every day. Warren: Well, that's a good reminder of the Washington and Lee gentleman supreme. Murray: Yeah. I've had some times over here, good and bad, but mostly good, thank goodness. Like I told you, I never liked seeing any student get in trouble, but sometimes you have to get them in trouble if they don't do right. You were talking 26 about honor violations. I'm not proud of it, but I suspect maybe twenty in all got kicked out of here. Warren: In thirty years that sounds about right. Murray: Well, I wasn't proud of it, but it was something I had to do. I miss the job, but I don't miss prowling around all hours of the night like I used to. Warren: Is your wife glad to have you home? Murray: Yeah, she wants to know where I am every five minutes. Warren: She must have been an awfully patient lady all those years. Murray: Maybe that's why we never had any children, because I never was at home. Been married fifty-two years this past April. Warren: That's quite a record. She earned those roses. [Laughter] Murray: [Laughter] Yeah. Just like my wife said in the alumni magazine the time they had us both in there, "Maybe when he retires, he'll know the way home." I can't go anywhere now that she don't go with me. I guess she wants to keep an eye on me, because we both had slight heart attacks, so they say. I'm taking medicine now. Look where I just barely bumped my hand and I bruise. From taking that Coumadin blood thinner. The doctor says on account I have an irregular heartbeat. It never showed up when I was playing all that handball. Warren: You know one person we really didn't talk much about is President Huntley. What was he like? Murray: He was a real smart man. He handled things real well around here, especially back with that Vietnam thing, and they called off school or something like that, and he handled it very well. Warren: Were you involved in that? Murray: Oh, yes, I was there every time they had a meeting. What was that boy's name that back in those days was leading this thing around here? Warren: Jeff Gingold. 27 Murray: Oh, yeah. So one night he come to me, and I found out that they were going to burn things around here that night, do things, go to bring a bunch of guys over from the University of Virginia. Then later on that day, he come told me somebody stole his stereo equipment. I said, "I'll make a deal with you, Jeff. You don't cause me any problems or any trouble tonight, I'll get your stereo back." He says, "It's a deal." I got it back. Warren: How'd you do that? Murray: Found out who had it. The boy had to go all the way back to D.C. to get it, but he got it and brought it back to us. Warren: Was this a— Murray: A local. Warren: A local Lexington person? Murray: Yes. Warren: Or a local student? Murray: Local Lexington person had stole his stereo equipment. Warren: Was it just a coincidence that it was Jeff Gingold's stereo? Murray: I don't know, but anyway, we had no problems that night. I said, "I'll make a deal with you," and he said, "Okay." Warren: So much did you have to pay this guy to steal Jeff Gingold's stereo? [Laughter] Murray: [Laughter] I didn't pay him anything. I didn't pay him anything. He took it and we got it back, so we didn't have any problems. Warren: You are amazing. You know, one person told me that you were the moral center of Washington and Lee. Murray: Well, I'm proud of that. Just like Dr. Wilson said, I got all kinds of recommendation letters at home from a man who’s the head of a school in Lynchburg, had his daughter up here, and one night he had an emergency, he had to find her, and 28 he couldn't find her, so I met with him and took him to where she was, and he took her on back home to Lynchburg. He wrote Dr. Wilson the nicest letter you ever saw about saying it was nice to have people, a security man, that would go out of his way to help somebody and he appreciated it very much. Dr. Wilson sent me a copy of it. Warren: When did you get help? When did it stop being just Murph? Murray: Let's see. I started out with one man. At the time I had three men here doing the punch clocks and checking the buildings, but they wasn't under me at that time. So I hired another man, who was an ex-policeman, and he handled all the parties and stuff, but we didn't have anything to do with that. Then they got the idea to let me handle the whole thing, so they put it under me. Let's see. There was Herman and I, and there was three nightmen, then they had four. So then it stayed that way for a while, just to cover the campus, while I covered the streets, Herman and I. Then we went on and we got larger in the following years where we had to be around twenty-four hours a day, so we got larger. When I left there was twelve people, counting myself. I don't know how many he has now, thirteen or fourteen, counting himself. We never had any problems. Warren: It's pretty miraculous given how many people there are. How did you know everybody by name? Murray: I don't know. Well, like when these reunions come up, I got stacks and stacks of Calyxes at home, and every reunion class that comes up, I get that book and look at it, just to refresh me. I know the faces real well, and it's just refresh myself with the book, and so when they come around they say, "I'm So-and-So," "I know who you are," and all that. So I always was pretty good at remembering faces and stuff. Anyway, I guess all those years of work paid off. Warren: I guess they have, Murph. You are a special person. Murray: I hope so. [Laughter] Anyway, I enjoyed it. But as you get older, I'm seventy- five now, and as you get older you've got to slow down. I didn't want to retire when I 29 retired. I retired at sixty-nine and a half. I think I'd been seventy the following November, but I decided to hang it up, because I kept getting these letters from retirement we’re in over here, kind of discouraging, wanting a retirement date. I filled out one of those the other day at the bank. The last one I got says, "If you don't give us a retirement date, you're going to start drawing this money by the time you're seventy or so, seventy and a half," say the federal government will step in and take 50 percent of it. I said to heck with that. Warren: That's an incentive, isn't it? [Laughter] Oh, my gosh. Murray: That's what it says, the federal government will step in and take 50 percent of your savings, retirement. Warren: Well, that would move me to action, too. Murray: Yeah, it did me. Warren: Well, is there anything else you would like to talk about? This has just been marvelous. I'm so glad we got together. Murray: I don't know, there's a lot of things that just won't come to me right now. Another thing, this had been in the eighties, they called me at home one night, said there's a bomb in the elevator in this building. So I come over here, I was by myself, I looked at that thing, and looked at it and looked at it, up underneath, down there, everywhere else, and I couldn't find anything. So about two days later, I was heading back toward the library, and this young man stopped me out there at the wall and he said, "Murph." I said, "Yeah." He said, "I know you're working on something." I said, "You do?" He says, "Before you do anything else, I just want to tell you that I did it. I was drunk that night and didn't realize what I was doing." I said, "Well, I thank you very much." 30 So that's when Dean John was still dean, he asked me—I went over there to tell him. I said, "Well, I found out who the young man was who said he put a bomb in the elevator." "Who was it?" I said, "Well, I'm going to tell you something. Being as that young man was honest enough and had guts enough to come face me and tell me he did it. I'm not going to tell you," and I didn't. Warren: That seems true to the Washington and Lee way. Murray: Yeah. So he never questioned me any more on it. I don't think we've had a bomb threat since. Oh, well. Warren: What about when black students started attending? Were there ever any problems then? Murray: Well, it was mainly—not with our own students, it was mainly local. I remember one night down there, there was a boy, he was in high school at that time, he was a pretty good athlete in high school, and he was down there drunk, and there was seven or eight of these young black men that were standing there. And I had their respect, too. This boy kept on running his mouth, and I told him he better get going before I'll have him locked up. He said, "You're just jealous of me because I'm a football player." He was still in high school. I said, "Listen, son, I played football before you was ever born." Those black boys, they was just waiting for him to start something, and he left. They all walked around the corner with me and said, "We was waiting on you, Murph." I didn't have any problems with them. I helped them just as much as I did the white students. Warren: You were there to protect you, did you know that? I had them tell me that story. Murray: The black students? 31 Warren: Yes. Murray: Yeah. Warren: One of them told me that story, and they said that you were so good to them that they were going to make sure you were okay, too. Murray: Yeah. One night—we used to have some kind of concerts over in the dining hall. This University of Virginia student boy in there and he come outside. I heard some glass break, I didn't know who it was, I couldn't figure it. Some W&L students said, "Well, whoever did it went back in there, Murph." So I went in there and I found this guy, his hand was bleeding, so I brought him outside and he wanted to get smart, and I grabbed him up in the collar and he took a swing at me. He didn't hurt me, because he was pretty well drunk. A little small student, I can't think of his name, and there was four or five more come around and he said, "Did you see what that guy did to Murph?" And all five of them jumped on him. [Laughter] I had to get them off. So the police come along about that time and I had him locked up. They didn't bother the students. I told them they was just helping me. I'll tell you, times, times. But it seemed if I had any problem, most of them was already ready to back me up. Of course, the kids nowadays are not. They're a little different now than they were then, in my opinion. Warren: What do you mean? Murray: I mean most of them don't care about anything, and they don't care who sees them, anything. But a lot of those kids back in those days was a little more quiet about what they did. Now they're open with it. Warren: Times keep changing. Murray: Yeah, I know that. Every day. Warren: Well, I'm just about at the end of my tape. Should I pop in another one? Do you have anything more you want to say? 32 Murray: [Laughter] Oh, there's quite a few things. Getting back to the Honor System, I was having problems over in Gilliam Dorm, and we got a-hold of some of this powder that you can't see it unless you use ultraviolet light. I went down to VMI and had the chief of security down there put it on there for me and put it in a billfold and close it up and it laid in this boy's room. There was two boys in there, and he'd been missing money. So I asked him, told him what I was going to do, and I told him to stay away from his room. So he did. I noticed his roommate come in, went in and pulled the shade down, and stayed in there four or five minutes and he came out. So I went in to see if the money was still in the billfold and it was, but it had been moved. I moved it and it was. So the boy called me, he said, "Murph, somebody moved my billfold." I said, "I did, because I saw a person go in there and I wanted to see if he took the money." So the next day he did take it. Warren: And it was his roommate? Murray: Uh-huh. So they called me and I got the head dorm counselor mixed up in it, so he stayed down there in the room and I went over to the library and found this kid, took him back over there. I asked him, I said, "Do you have any money on you?" He said, "No, sir." I said, "You sure you don't?" He said, "No, sir." I said, "Do you mind putting your hands under this light?" He said, "No." He put it under the light and it lit up like a Christmas tree. He even had it on shirt pocket where he'd stuck it down his shirt pocket. So the E.C. found him guilty and he appealed it. They had an open hearing, and I went down there, and they was trying to say that that powder flew everywhere, and I said, "Do you remember during the trial when we put that bottle of stuff on the money and put it in the billfold and banged it on the desk like this? Then I run the light over it 33 and there wasn't any on the desk." So they found him guilty, [unclear], found him guilty. Warren: Boy, he had chutzpah, didn't he? Murray: That's something I'm not proud of, but I just wasn't going to let him get away with it. Warren: You sure can't. Let me put in another tape. [Beginning of Tape 2, Side 1] Warren: This is Mame Warren, the fourteenth of May 1997, tape two with Charles Murray, otherwise known as "Murph," who just keeps telling me wonderful stories. Keep going. Murray: I'm trying to think of some more. I remember one night, about four o'clock in the morning, I was coming down Washington Street, two fraternities there, and I kept hearing glass break. So I just went on down the street and turned around and come back and parked in the parking lot in between them. I got out my flashlight, and I think at first they thought I was the police. So I got to shining the flashlight around, and the windows all broke out one side of the house down there, and a boy came out of the fraternity house and he says, "Is that you, Murph?" I said, "Yeah." He says, "Oh, hell." I said, "This stuff's got to stop." He said, "Okay, it's stopped right now." I said, "You guys are tearing up too much stuff around here." So they quit. Warren: Why do you think they do that? Murray: I don't know. They just didn't care anything about those houses. They messed up one of those houses over there every summer. So I used to watch all of the fraternity houses before the school took them over, to make sure they wasn't broken into. There was one fraternity house, I'd go in over there, and I'm telling you, the 34 roaches was just all over the place. So I'd get the Orkin man in there and he'd spray and put off these smelly bombs, and I'd go over there the next day and I've gotten up as many as two dish pans full of roaches out of the floor. One boy told me one day, I knew him real well, he moved out of this fraternity house, I asked him, I said, "What'd you move out for?" "I got tired of waking up every morning with the roaches in bed with me." So that's been eliminated now with all this renovation. Warren: So you were still around during the Fraternity Renaissance. Murray: Yeah. They had finished quite a few of them. Let's see, I believe the SAE was finished, and the Sigma Nu, Phi Delta Beta and PiKA and Phi Kap. Of course, they didn't have too much to the Phi Gamma House, because it had already been fixed up after it burnt. Most of them were finished before I left. Warren: So could you tell? Did you know that it was going to be such a big transition? Murray: No. I knew once the school spent all that money and took over the fraternity houses there was going be a lot of changes made. I knew that from the experience I had with the Phi Psi and the SAE that time. I knew there was going to be a big change, get tighter. They tried to stop having all these kegs around these fraternity houses, but now they got more control over it. I mean, now they can go in and take them. Before the school took them over, you couldn't do that, because you had to report it to the nationals, and you know they're not going to too much if they can help it. So they got them where it bothers them now if they do anything wrong. Warren: I hear they're going to try to eliminate alcohol entirely in some of the houses. Murray: They have at the Phi Delta, I think I heard that. Warren: And Sigma Nu, they're telling them in three years or something. Murray: Well, I think they been working, it started out with the Phi Delts, really going to the Ring-tum Phi and stuff like that, I've been reading it. Warren: What do you think is going to happen? 35 Murray: Well, they'll just go somewhere else if they want to drink. Nine times out of ten, they'll be way out in the country somewhere and they all get drunk and that's when you're going to start having a bunch of people killed. Warren: So you think it's safer to have it going on here in town? Murray: If they're living in the fraternity house or anything like that, or live close to the fraternity house where they can walk to their apartments it would probably be better. But if they start taking them out in the country, somebody's going to get hurt. This school has always been known for a drinking school, you know that. Warren: It has a reputation. Murray: I know it does. Warren: Did you ever get involved in talking to, say, security or administration at the women's schools when something would happen, when they'd get upset about something? Murray: No, because I never had any problems for me to go to them about. I never had any problems with that, because at nighttime when I was there, every night I was pretty close around where these girls were all the time. Warren: How about the opening of the Student Pavilion? Did that make a difference with things? Murray: Partying over there? Warren: Yes. Murray: Yeah, we tried to control the drinking up there, but we never could. You can get these students to help you, and first thing you know, they was bringing it in the side doors on you somehow. But you try to control it. It's impossible sometimes. We stood at that door and checked them, practically patted the girls and boys come in there, trying to find booze. I was standing there one night and this boy come by, I could see the top of the bottle sticking—it was cold, and I could see the top of the bottle sticking up about that far. As he walked by, I just reached out like that and pulled it out real 36 easy and he didn't know I had it. I guess he got to looking for his whiskey when he got inside and he didn't have any. Warren: Last year at Homecoming, I was just amazed at how many people were very blatant about having flasks with them. Murray: Oh, yeah. I never could see any point in all that drinking. I'm not a drinking man myself. I never could see any point in all that drinking. Warren: I don't understand what they get out of it. Murray: Most of them don't realize what they're doing to their bodies. I tell you, I've seen some of these girls just as drunk as boys. Then they wonder why they get harassed and molested. They get all drunk and don't know what they're doing. I've seen that quite a bit. Warren: What about the guys that don't get involved in fraternities? Are they more or less likely to be a problem? Is there a distinction there? Murray: No, when I was there, most of the time if they had parties, if they were non- fraternity, they tend to let them in as long as they didn't bother anybody. They were pretty nice about it. I can remember one night over at a certain fraternity, they was having this party, 3:30 in the morning, and this had happened a little earlier, there was a couple of cadets in there and some student was pretty well liquored up, and didn't want them in there. So they beat up on them pretty good. About 3:30 I was coming back down the street and I saw this police officer standing out in the street and I said, "What's the matter?" He said, "I'm just looking around." About that time we heard something, looking up and about three hundred-and- some cadets coming up the street. Some of them had tape all around their hands and this that and the other. I was just sitting there in the car, they didn't pay any attention to me. I sat there in the car. I knew what was up. 37 So the police officer got on the radio and he says, "Call VMI and see what these young cadets are up to." I said, "I can tell you what they're up to." He said, "What?" I said, "They're going right up there," and that's where they went, up that at the fraternity house. I was teasing one of the guys during the reunion about having to get him off of a cadet. They were down on the porch beating him and I pulled him off, and he looked up and he saw what he thought was another cadet and he said, "Oh, that's you, Murph." I said, "Yeah, quit this foolishness." He was a great big old football player, he weighed over three hundred pounds. Warren: What had happened to inspire this? Murray: The students beat up a couple of cadets. Warren: So three hundred came? Murray: Yeah, at least three hundred. So they went up there and there was this big old football player, I tell you, he weighed about three hundred pounds, he got up on the railing of the back porch, he jumped off and knocked about five of them down at one time. So we finally got it straightened up, the police and myself. Couple of policemen got pushed around a little bit, but we got it calmed down. Warren: Amazing. Amazing. Murray: I knew exactly where they were going. [Laughter] Because I got a little inkling about them beating up a cadet up there or something because he wouldn't leave. Warren: I've heard other stories, but I suspect they were before your time, about W&L students stealing cannons. Murray: Oh, it wasn't W&L. That was back when I was a policeman. A bunch of high school kids did it. The football coach at the VMI at that time was named Pulley Hubert [phonetic]. He had a son in high school who was a pretty good athlete, so he and two 38 or three other boys, four or five boys, rather, went down to VMI and took one of those cannons right there besides Jackson statue, rolled it down through there. I don't know what time they took it, rolled it down and put in the chapel parking lot. Well, the cadets found out about it. They thought students did it. I was uptown by myself, and about seven hundred of those cadets come off that hill, and they went down there and they run everybody out of the Beta House and all those houses down there, even upset the housemother's bed and throwed some of the food out the back door, and got those students out there and made them take that cannon back up to VMI where it belonged, and the high school kids had did it. Didn't take me long to find out who did it, but they're the ones that did it. Warren: You know, I had heard that, and the guy who told me was one of those Betas that got thrown out of his bed, and he told me high school students had done it, but I didn't believe him. [Laughter] Murray: They did it. Warren: They really did. [Laughter] Murray: Was that an alumnus you was talking to? Warren: Yes. He remembered it real clearly because he had a broken leg. Murray: Yeah, they threw up Jack down there. But after they got the cannon back, they calmed down. But it's a wonder, and I don't know whether they're still doing it now, but every Sunday morning those cadets would march down the hill to go to church. The Betas would be half dunk, sit up on a wall, you know, ragging them. And they broke ranks down there one day and went after them again. Those students were asking for it. Warren: So did the Betas have a special relationship with VMI? Murray: I guess so. I used to have more trouble with them, especially over at Sweet Briar. They'd go over there and hang around town, you know, on these scavenger hunts. They used to send them on scavenger hunts, and they'd go over to Sweet Briar 39 and take a bunch of stuff. I don't know, I just caught on to it, and I found out that what was happening and it was the Betas. So I would go down there and get the stuff. If they'd broke that up, I'd find out how much it cost to replace it, so I'd get all the money, and stuff that didn't break, I'd go in with the money and take care of it and return it, or I'd have somebody come up here and get it. So anytime anything like that happened, I always just went to the Beta House, I knew where it was. Another thing the Phi Kaps used to do years and years ago, during pledge week they'd go down and steal one of the upperclassmen's cars and they'd bring it up right in front of the chapel door, right next to the front of the chapel door. They'd jack it up on cinder blocks and take all four wheels off and leave it sitting there. So it didn't take me long to find out who was doing that. So every time that'd happen, I'd just call down at Phi Kappa house and tell them to come up there and get that car. Warren: So did each fraternity have certain things that they did? Murray: Well, they did all kinds of things. They used to come up to my house and want something that belonged to me. The Phi Delts used to have an old fellow that used to sell the [unclear]. They called him the "Quarter Man," he was always wanting a quarter. So after he died, they buried him out here at this Ebenezer Church. So the next class that came along, they wanted to know where the "Quarter Man" was buried, so they come up to my house to find out. To come to my house, they'd make shortcuts and try to find what they was looking for, because I'd tell them. I'd tell them where he was buried and they'd go up there and find out about him and then come back. They used to call me to help them find something. Warren: Well, I'm doing the same thing. I'm going to ask you about the "Puppy Man." Did you know the "Puppy Man"? Some guy that used to sell puppies. Murray: Oh, Herb Lindsey. Warren: Yes, Herb the Puppy Man. Is that what he was called? 40 Murray: Yeah. I was young when he was there. He used to sell these dogs to people, kids, students, everybody. They always had some name for somebody. So you've been talking to the alumni about trying to find out some things, huh? Warren: Yes. Murray: Well, I always considered myself pretty lucky to get along with them the way I did, because they knew I wasn't trying to take advantage of them. Warren: Well, it's mutual; they have a lot of respect for you. Murray: Yeah, I know. Warren: Your name comes up a lot, whether I ask or not. Murray: Before one of the board of trustees retired, he had some minutes put in the log about me in the school annual things, whatever they do, and I appreciated that. Warren: I think you've earned whatever honors you've gotten. Murray: I tried. Warren: Well, I want to thank you, this has really been a pleasure. Murray: We've been talking for a little while, haven't we? Warren: Yes, we have. Yes, we have, and you've given me some really terrific material. I thank you. Murray: You're welcome. Warren: If you think of anything else, you give me a call and we'll do it again. Or I'll come out to Maple Lane. Murray: I don't know anything coming to me right now. I'm trying to think. There's so much happening out there and I just can't remember it all. I remembered right much of it, didn't I? Warren: You did pretty well. You remembered more than most, but then you've put in more time than most here, too. Murray: Yes, most every day. Just an ordinary day, I was up sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hours a day. 41 Warren: Whew. And I think I'm doing something special when I stay 'til 6:30. Thank you, Murph. Murray: Okay. [Tape recorder turned off] Warren: Okay, we've got one more story here. Murray: This young man, he belonged across the street in the Gilliam dormitory and this other student lived in Graham-Lees, and he told one day he was missing a check. So I finally found out about it and got the check back for a hundred dollars. I got to check quite a few handwriting specimens with kids in his section, didn't compare anything. So I asked him, I said, "You have any visitors from any of the rest of the dormitories besides the people in this hall?" He said, "Yeah, the kid across the street." So I found out who he was, and got to checking on his handwriting, and I noticed a whole lot of the similarity in the way he made his sixes, his fours, his ones, his threes, and the way he made his Es on the check. So I got enough information together to send off to this man, and he called me, he was out of town, and he called me all the way from the Midwest somewhere and he says, "You're on the right track. But I'm out of town right now." He says, "You're on the right track, but just get this person to write you a couple of checks." So we called into my office and he did it. Of course, he tried to disguise it. So I sent him off to the man, and he come back with some information some four or five days later that, "He's your man." So I forwarded it to the E.C. committee and they took him up. During the hearing down there, he had a law student representing him, he asked me, he said, "Murph, how come you picked this person of all the other people around?" I said, "Simple way he made his ones, his twos, his threes and his Es and his regular handwriting.” Counting, all told, I've been in this type of work pretty close to forty years. 42 So he asks me, he says, "Murph, are you an expert on this handwriting?" I said, "No, I'm no expert. But I'll tell you, I've been doing this kind of stuff for forty years, and I think I know what I'm talking about." He shut up and they found him guilty. So that was it. Warren: You do have your tricks. Murray: Well, it's like setting traps, but sometimes you have to set a trap to catch something. I used to have an old boy that worked over in the gymnasium, he was local, he worked under the temp program. They brought him in there, he kept on. Somebody got to missing wristwatches and their money. I noticed he was going across the bridge over there where those people over there, they go over there and sometimes when they wasn't busy and they'd play cards and gamble a little bit. So I know I found out he was spending a lot of money over there, so I said, "I'm going to catch him." So I took over a pair of pants and shoes and a shirt and a billfold and put it on a benchin the locker room. I got in the shower where he couldn't see me, but I could see him through a mirror. So when it was time for him to go to lunch, here he come down through there looking around and looking around, and I spotted him. He come along, reached down, got that billfold and started out that side door where the girls come out of now. About the time that he reached out and started at the door, I reached out and grabbed him by the seat of the pants and pulled him back, and took him upstairs. Coach Miller was there at that time. I pulled the billfold out of his pocket and showed him what I did. So he got rid of him. He told him to get off the campus. So that afternoon, later on that afternoon, he called the TAP program and told them what happened. So there was a young black fellow in charge of the TAP Program, and he called Coach Miller and told him, says, "You can't fire him, he works for us." Dick says, "Like hell I can't. We don't want him around here anymore." So that was it. 43 But first year or so I worked there, we didn't have the new part of that gym, it was mainly Buena Vista kids and Lexington kids. The first year I worked there, I caught twenty-some of them coming in there stealing money and billfolds and watches. I finally asked one of them from Buena Vista, I said, "Who told you to come over here and steal stuff?" He said, "Well, they told us it was easy over here." I said, "You found out, didn't you?" So I didn't have any more problems with that. Warren: It's certainly one of the things I enjoy most about working here is having the feeling that I'm safe. Murray: Yeah. Warren: And that I don't need to worry about things. When I have friends come visit from the big city— Murray: I better get in there before I get a ticket on my car. I'm in a two-hour zone. Warren: Oh, my goodness! We don't want you getting a ticket. Thank you, Murph. [End of interview] 44