ALEXA SALZMAN May 2, 1996 — Mame Warren, interviewer Warren: This is Mame Warren. I'm in Lexington, Virginia, on the second of May 1996, with Alexa Salzman. So, why did you want to come here in the first place? Why Washington and Lee, and especially at that time? I mean, obviously it was your time, but it was an unusual time for Washington and Lee. Salzman: Well, I can remember at that age, and that's the age of making the monumental decision of what college you're going to attend, not going through the rationale that I utilize now in making a decision. It was much more kind of gut reaction or emotional sort of responses. I took a trip, a college trip, and visited all the southern universities, and got to W&L, and it was distinctive in so many ways. At the time I just remember feeling the appeal, you know, and it was hard. It was things like seeing students running on the Colonnade and the front lawn and throwing footballs around. It was just a very collegiate atmosphere to me. The Colonnade is such a spectacular structure, and what I envisioned a college to look like, and the rolling hills in the background. And college students with their baseball hats and their shorts and their T-shirts were the same college students I see today, just a little bit younger than my age, of course. The people I remember as just coming across as very friendly, seeming to just be very comfortable in their environment. 1 Then as I began to read about W&L, it encompassed all of the structural aspects that I looked for in a school, and that was a small, liberal arts, conservative sort of place, and there were several schools that would compete in the same realm, but W&L certainly held its appeal visually. So it got time to apply to schools, and W&L stood out for those reasons that I just mentioned. All of a sudden, I got back to Atlanta and I started hearing stories about how difficult the coeducation transition was going to be, and I was hearing stories about how opposed all the men at campus were and all the alumni, and stories about the difficulty involved with UVA's [University of Virginia] transition and Princeton's transition, and stories about men throwing tomatoes at women on the campus from the fraternity houses. As a sixteen-year-old, I just got a little nervous, and I didn't apply early decision. Then I had that extra three months to think about the college experience, and I just didn't want to let that get in the way, and I started getting very enthusiastic at the thought about being in the first class of graduating women. It was exciting. At that time I was thinking it would be a wonderful distinction on the college experience and résumé, for that matter, aside from the fact that W&L was just the sort of place that really appealed on all other levels. So I applied and was waiting-listed, which I point out all the time, considering my relative involvement as an alumna in the college affairs. That was the extent of the decision there. Not as exciting as I think some other people’s. Warren: What did it mean to be wait-listed? Salzman: I think, as is the case with so many other things, you realize how much you want something when you are told you can’t have it. To tell you the truth, had I gotten in I probably would have spent a long time thinking about Washington and Lee versus Georgetown, versus a scholarship at UGA, even though in my mind I thought that it 2 was the place I wanted to go. But having not gotten it initially really helped me determine how much I wanted to come here. I immediately wrote a letter to the admissions office and told them how delighted I was that I was not turned down, but how disappointed I was that I had not been accepted and were I to be accepted this would be, by far, my first choice and I would be here that following fall. I got a call the next day. I can remember standing in my kitchen, and someone from the admissions office called and told me that I had gotten in. I shrieked, and then later thought that was not really the right sort of reaction to have, and tried to regain my composure. So that was the extent of it. Then I had the summer to enjoy the acceptance. Warren: That’s a wonderful story. Salzman: Yeah, it was a great story. Warren: Wow, that’s great. So you arrive. Any tomatoes? Salzman: No tomatoes. Not in the sense of an actual vegetable being thrown at you. I arrived at campus and we were, of course, one of 100 women, I think 106, to be exact, in that class of 400 at a school of 1,600. There was so much media attention. I can remember local TV crews being there and filming us as we walked into campus. I just remember being scared as a freshman, entering college, even more so as a woman in the first class of coeducation. I unloaded in my dorm. I remember crying when my father left. I remember being scared in a new environment. I don’t specifically remember being subjected to harassment as a woman in a men’s college, initially. Then there was constant attention that was given to the fact that we were women. It was people staring all the time. A lot of questions about how we came to arrive here. There was a strong undercurrent of harassment from upper classmen, who, I think, for the most part had jumped from the bandwagon about the negative 3 sentiment, even more so than the fact that they didn’t want to go to college with women. It was manifested in forms such as boycotting taking Washington and Lee women to social events. [Tape recorder turned off.] Warren: Okay. Boycotting you. How rude. That doesn’t sound like a W&L “gentleman”. Tell me about that. Salzman: I remember being at a social function, Homecoming, which was that October, right after we had arrived. I was one of a handful of Washington and Lee women that were dates at that function. My poor date, I think, experienced nonstop harassment probably from the time he asked me to well after the time that we attended the Homecoming parties. Warren: Was he a freshman? Salzman: Yes, he was, which probably made it worse for him as a freshman in a fraternity. But I will say by the time that I did graduate, at a social function you had kind of a more natural distribution of Washington and Lee women as dates at these functions. I mean, 70-80 percent of the women were people that were classmates. So there was that sort of element. There were some upper classmen who were just rude, I mean they were really angry or really determined to make a point. There were T-shirts that were printed with things that I certainly would not want to repeat on tape. We kind of laughed and saw it as somebody who was taking an opportunity to capitalize on an emotional current that was running strong. Looking back, now as a grown-up and somebody who is a bit more grounded, I think that it’s something that we wouldn’t stand for today. At the time we didn’t know any better. I have to say that I would imagine that it goes on at all colleges, but here was just a real good excuse to go ahead and nip an issue. Then we had soccer games. There was wonderful support from the administration. You never felt ostracized in a classroom. There was one teacher who was not supportive of coeducation, and the men still wore ties to class and women 4 were, as I remember hearing, embarrassed in class. But he was the only professor that maintained that status. The rest were really encouraging. When we got to the point where we decided we wanted to begin having some women sport teams, we were immediately given equal facilities. The men’s soccer coach devoted as much time to us, to coach us and work with us as he did the men’s team. We had buses that were available for transportation to other games, and I would imagine a very healthy budget that was appropriated to us. Now, once we got to the soccer field, the men from school came out and rooted for the opposing team. [Laughter] Which was kind of another element. Just little things like that, that were kind of ongoing that we laughed about at the time, but were really not very supportive. Warren: Was anybody rooting for you? Salzman: Let me think. There were coaches and professors were rooting for us. I suspect that a lot of men were rooting for us, they just weren’t showing it at that time. Every year things improved. Maybe the upper classmen graduated. Maybe people became a little bit more sensible about the situation. Maybe some of the men realized that they liked women as friends and classmates and as companions. Things slowly improved. I really believe it was people jumping on the bandwagon, more so than people really feeling angry about the situation. Certainly within our class there were a lot more friendships. There was much more initial assimilation within our class than there was within the school as a whole. Warren: Between the men and women in your class? Salzman: Yes. It was natural. We were all kind of there struggling as freshmen together. That was almost our first identity even before men at Washington and Lee versus women at Washington and Lee. So I thought that was promising. So, no tomatoes. 5 Warren: That’s an interesting thought. The men who were in your class were in a historic position, too. Salzman: To tell you the truth, I always understood that men that were in the two classes above us applied knowing there was a very good chance that coeducation would occur within their experience at W&L. So they knew it was coming and can’t really act as if they were blind-sided. But I think it was the popular thing to do at that time, to really be upset about it. Warren: What was your relationship with the administration and the faculty? I guess I mean on a social level. Salzman: Before we came, I remember one of the promotions for Washington and Lee was the small class size, the interaction with the faculty, the faculty that would take classes outside on the lawn and teach them there, that would take you out for a beer after class and that sort of thing. I remember that being the case to an extent. It wasn’t quite as social as that, probably for good reason. Professors need not be your best friend when they’re also trying to grade you on your academic performance. I don’t remember it being distinguishable at all between genders. As I said, nobody was set apart or nothing was expected more so of anyone else. There was not any sort of encouragement of trying to get women to speak out, all of a sudden become a voice in the classroom. I remember just professors being available, very interested in your progression academically, just devoting a lot of personal attention to our academics. I don’t remember much more social activity outside of that. I will say I arrive on campus today and most professors remember me by name, ten years later, which is, I think, not a personal situation with me, but just the nature of our school. I enjoy speaking to them now as adults, rather than as a student-professor relationship that we had for four years. I appreciate them a lot more today than I think 6 I did as a student. I get mad at myself that I didn’t take more advantage of the incredible people that they are, but that’s probably what all students think. Warren: Were there any teachers who were particularly important to you? Salzman: Professor Gunn had a large impact on, I think, my decision to become an economics major, and just gave me a lot of confidence in that major all the way around. He was somewhat of a quirky professor. Not everyone, I think, felt the same way that I did, but I just remember liking his teaching style, liking his wit, having a very solid fundamental understanding of economics that I think came from him, and it was carried out through—he was my advisor, and I spent time in his office. He had a big pile of papers that must have been a yard high and you’d have to lean to one side to be able to talk to him. He had a great impact on me, I think more so than any of the rest. He’s, I think, still here. He is just now retired—emeritus, as they say. Warren: So economics would be in the C School? Salzman: Yes, ma’am. Warren: So were there many girls in the C School? Salzman: I think that there were a disproportionately low number of economic majors that were women. I don’t know if I have just always been in male-dominated arenas, because professionally now I am in finance, and that’s a male-dominated arena as well. I just never really noticed it. There were plenty of men. There were plenty of women. I think because in all the classes that there were so many more men than women, it was not something that stood out to me. Warren: So did you take a lot of other kinds of classes, too? Salzman: Uh-huh. I stuck with the economics and math-related classes because I think that was my strength. I wish now I had taken advantage of more of the electives or other sort of classes that were available. That was a decision that people consider when choosing W&L, small school versus maybe a bigger school that can offer more. As I come back now as an alumnus 7 and alumna board member, and I hear about the programs that are going on and the expansion of the religion curriculum and that sort of thing, and I think, gosh, when did you all start these programs and when did you begin this class, and what a great philosophy to teach. Of course, it’s been here for twenty to thirty years, but as a student I just wasn’t quite as adventurous as I wish I had been. So the answer to your question is, no, I pretty much stuck over on that side of the school, but there was a lot more going on that I could have taken advantage of. I was just a little too immature to realize it, I think. Warren: That’s the fun part for me, coming back at this age, because I go to all these things now and it’s great to be back at a university. Salzman: I would adore it. Living in California, you’re offered so much diversity on every subject all the time and it’s just fascinating for me to learn about it. I wish I had had that same fascination when I was here, but I think my focus was social activities and making a grade point average that would be acceptable to my parents and would kind of make everything fine. Warren: Well, let’s talk about those social activities. It’s a party school. Salzman: Yeah. It is. It’s hard for me to know if it’s more so than other schools. We talk to people and people that have been to some of the bigger state schools come here and tell us that it is a party school. And I think it’s a wonder. I think it’s the grace of God that college students survive those four years of college. We do not really have enough sense about us as we should. In some ways I think it goes along with the spirit of the institution. It’s a well- rounded group of people. It’s people who are socially adept. I don’t know what to say about it. As a woman, it was tough because it all revolved around the fraternity system, and I don’t think fraternity systems always promote positive values. I think it creates some bonding for the men, which is healthy in some respects, but doesn’t offer women much at all. I think sororities probably do so now. 8 I think for the people who aren’t interested in a fraternal system, it’s unfortunate, because there’s not a lot of other opportunity. I hope that as the school is becoming more and more competitive and diverse, if it is so, that people will develop other interests, even socially, besides fraternity parties. Part of the nature of that, too, is being in such a small town. There’s just not a lot of alternatives. On a Saturday night we could go to Spanky’s, we can go to the Palms, although we were too young to drink there, so we didn’t, or you could go to a fraternity party, or you could go to a movie, and that’s about it. So you understand why the structure is that way, and it was fun. I just think it would be a little bit better if there was more opportunity to do more things. Warren: So I assume you’re implying then that fraternity parties were the main social life? Salzman: For me they were, and for just about everybody I knew they were as well. Warren: So take me to a fraternity party. Salzman: Well, the most important thing, we never went before eleven o’clock. It was so strange. We laugh about it now. But you get ready, sometimes it’s because you study late, you go out to dinner, what have you. You go back to your dorm, you get ready and you sit with your friends and socialize there and have a cocktail there because you don’t want to go to the party before eleven o’clock. It’s just kind of the rule. And, of course, my parents always said, “What is it that you do after twelve o’clock that you can’t do before twelve o’clock?” And the answer is nothing, but it was just kind of the rule. So they start late and they end late, and you go to a fraternity party. And fraternities were known for different things. Some always had a lot of dancing and great music. Some liked to offer, you know, better and more exciting beverages, different sort of cultures within different fraternities. And so I spent a good majority of my time at one fraternity the whole time I was here mostly because, I think, of the people you were dating. 9 You would go and there would be people from all over campus that you don’t see very often, people from the other schools that would come in, a lot of socializing and talking and catching up and laughing and dancing, which is, I think, a pretty healthy component of a fraternity party. And for some reason, men, when they drink or go to parties, love to get belligerent and there would always end up being some sort of window-breaking or sliding across the floor or sliding down banisters. I think they revert back to six or eight-year-olds or maybe thirteen-year-olds. Then you just kind of spent the whole night doing really nothing. You left at two or three in the morning. And I just told my mom this story, when the fraternity party ends, everyone went to Lloyd’s. And Lloyd’s is no longer here, but it’s where Harb's used to be. And it was a greasy, fried food place and you went and you had your greasy, fried food and your milkshake and your french fries at three o’clock in the morning and it was just part of the routine every night. And the party kind of continued there and you saw friends and laughed a little bit more. The only thing you didn’t really have the dancing and then you kind of stumbled home. And we were lucky. It’s a small university and everything was close enough that we could safely get around without too much trouble. It was kind of a cohesive, little community so we didn’t have outside factors that would come in that could put us in danger, although I understand that now that’s becoming more and more of a factor. And now there is a lot more attention to some of the dangerous aspects of that sort of lifestyle, and everyone, I think, is being educated on those and being told to not accept them and watch out for them. Warren: What sort of lifestyle? Salzman: I think maybe putting yourself in a situation where you are alone at night, you know. And we no longer have just college students here, we have people who are not college students and might not follow the honor code, you know, or behave as 10 would a gentleperson. And then you also have some college students who lose their senses when they’ve had too much to drink. And now date rape is becoming much more of an issue, and people are starting to speak out about it. I think when I was here it would have been hard to make an issue out of something like that because it was just the sort of thing that you didn’t talk about, and you would ostracize yourself within the study body. And I think the professors and the staff would be supportive, but it would be kind of social suicide for you if you wanted to continue your education here and your social life here, too. I never had a bad experience along those lines, but I have since talked to people that graduated with me that did. I would imagine it was frustrating for them to have that experience and not be able to speak out about it. And today, I think, they probably could speak out about it much more freely. And it was interesting, we had a woman, who I think is still here, Dean Schroer-Lamont, who was the dean of women, I think, and she spoke out about these issues and really wanted to promote a structure that would support women and some of the issues that they face. And everybody always kind of made fun of Dean Schroer-Lamont as kind of a radical, liberal thinker, and shaking things up, and thank God that we had Dean Schroer-Lamont doing that because it allowed us to make a little ground, even if not to the full extent that she wanted, to move us in the right direction. So that was an issue. But those are the sort of issues that I think college students do, and just the old sliding down the banister and breaking the windows and being dangerous and then AIDS. You know, I mean to act recklessly and irresponsibly now has a lot more repercussions than it ever did before. I think that we’re probably growing as a university and as a student body and as a social center every day. Warren: So you mentioned the dean, were there many other women who were here who could be role models for you or be helpful to you? 11 Salzman: There were several. There was Dean Simpson, and she’s still here, and she was very active in promoting women and women’s affairs. And I remember having several women professors. I don’t remember thinking in terms of role models. I mean, I remember being as inspired by the men as I was by the women, and that’s probably a very healthy arrangement as well, to not feel there are barriers or to be gender-blind in that respect. So I think maybe I didn’t notice it in the same way that I didn’t notice the fact that there was such a small minority of women in every class because it became just a natural scenario everywhere along the way. So the only woman that were speaking out loudly on behalf of the women was Dean Schroer-Lamont and she, I think, did so to the extent that she ostracized herself, you know, for doing that. We had a couple women in our class who spoke out loudly about women’s issues, too, and did the same thing. And I think for the most part we had a well-rounded group of women who wanted to assimilate and not necessarily make an incredible amount of headway to become leaders of the class or take over issues or promote women’s issues. And the women that did, did so for the benefit of us, so that the whole group can make a little bit of progress in the same way that Dean Schroer did, rather than meeting all those goals the first two or three years. So that was real healthy. I think if we didn’t have any of those women that we wouldn’t have made much progress at all and it takes hindsight to realize that. That’s funny. [Laughter] Warren: They’d probably appreciate hearing you say that now. Salzman: Well, yeah. I never said it at the time. I’ve realized it now. Warren: How about sororities, the issue of sororities? Since fraternities were so important, why did it take several years for sororities to happen? Salzman: Well, I think, my personal opinion is that I didn’t like sororities, and I was concerned about going to a big school where I would have to go through rush and join a sorority because I just kind of thought of them as being catty, you know, just 12 organizations that promoted cattiness amongst the women. You always heard about eating disorders and you heard about a lot of the negative things that sororities could bring. And I realize now—and we didn’t need them. With 100 girls, we were kind of our own little sorority. There was a Women’s Center. We didn’t spend a lot of time there, but we always spent time within the women’s houses around the campus, and we would have women’s cocktail parties and women friends over for dinner. We definitely pursued sort of a women’s social network. Then all of a sudden we had 200 women and 300 women and it just got harder to assimilate. We were also focusing on starting sports teams and getting a woman on the student government. That just took a lot of energy and, I think, provided the same sort of a facility that a sorority could provide. Then come senior year, all of a sudden there was a lot of people that started to say we really need an outlet like men. We need to be able to not have to have a date with a man on Fancy Dress Weekend to have social activities for that weekend. We need to have someplace Sunday night where we could always have dinner. So they colonized my senior year, and I can only imagine what a benefit it is for the women now. But, I think, when I was here we were just too small of a group to need it, and we didn’t need to be divided. In so many ways we were kind of united against this big front of men and coeducation that was staring us in the face. I didn’t colonize, but my friends did, some of my friends did our senior year and really enjoyed the benefits. Now I see women walking around with their Kappa sweatshirts and hear about the mixers and the parties and I think it’s very positive function for them. I’m glad it’s here. Warren: You mentioned Fancy Dress. Tell me about Fancy Dress. Salzman: Well, I had a bird’s-eye view because my best friend threw Fancy Dress one year. [Laughter] So I saw a lot of the ins and outs that went with it. 13 In looking back, it’s another big party and we build it up all year. You start thinking about the dress you’re going to wear. You start thinking about the date that you might want to have, what sort of dinner parties you’re going to plan. Then it comes and goes and you’re a little sad after it ends and all of a sudden you start thinking about it next year. But it’s incredible just to see the entire school unify around one function like that, because it’s rare that it happens. And it’s wonderful to see the students throw an event like that. I mean, I just think it takes an incredible amount of responsibility and there’s a large budget involved, and just the energy that goes into planning that party’s incredible. And to turn that gym—have you seen the gym?—into the wonderland that it becomes. The theme, every year it’s incredible. So I think it’s a big party. It’s a fun weekend. I’m more impressed by how much energy goes into the weekend, and then aside from that it’s just another big party, but a wonderful tradition, that’s for sure. Warren: So your close friend was the chairperson? Salzman: Uh-huh. She was the chairperson. The Student Activities Board is responsible for Fancy Dress and generally there’ll be a Fancy Dress Committee, and the chairman of that committee runs the party. And my friend almost had to drop out of school that semester because it really does take so much. And she, I think, wears the hat of being responsible for the most expensive Fancy Dress ever thrown because they brought in a train car to replicate the Orient Express, which was the theme for that year, as you can imagine. So, yes, she did throw that party and she— Warren: How did they do that? Salzman: You know, I don’t know. I don’t know where it came from or how they got it up there. They got it up on that upper deck area. I don’t know. Don’t tell her this, but I have since been told that that wasn’t even one of the most spectacular visible displays that have ever been there. I think the year before people had elephants walking around 14 in kind of an Arabic theme. And there were a lot of other visual aspects that you could use to have the same effect. Yes, she planned it, it was great. All the committee members took themselves out to Willson-Walker House for a great dinner to celebrate their, I think, months of hard work. Warren: So tell me about actually going to the dance. Salzman: Well, the dance is Friday night. And one of the best things about the weekend is the weekend’s events. But it’s really almost the only occasion all year long that you get to dress up. And you know college students, you just love to just wear your dirty shorts and T-shirts and your grubbies around, and it’s really exciting to have that opportunity. And you’ve been home at Christmastime and you shopped for your dress. And you are with big groups of people. And the men who were in charge of the social activities at that time, I’m sure now it’s changed a little bit, were in charge of planning the weekend and they did a darn good job of it. I can remember going out to my date’s farmhouse with his friends and his family or someone’s family that was in the house and they had flown in lobster from Maryland or something, and we sat around and drank and ate lobster and they had made a salad and just gone all out. And it was a really special occasion. A lot of people make reservations around town. A lot of people go out of town and make reservations. It’s just a real treat and, again, as a college student you live on your point card and you live off the cafeteria and burgers and fries, and it was a special occasion all the way around. Then you go to the dance and it’s, I guess, kind of like a fraternity party again except on a bigger scale. You see the faculty and you see friends that have come in from out of town, I think there is a big draw from that, and alumni. And there are great bands in all the different areas of the gym and there are old bands, which is fun to practice your steps that you learned at the cotillion many years before. 15 Just visually, it’s really it’s a fascinating sort of experience. That lasts for several hours and then everybody leaves and goes back to the fraternity houses and ends the night there dancing away. And then, as I said, Lloyd’s is your last stop along the way, in your formal dresses, and that’s it. But it’s a spectacular affair, it really is, especially from a college student’s eyes. We don’t get to do that very often. Warren: Well, I went for the first time this year and the thing I found so charming was that we were all there together, that the staff and the faculty and the administration and the kids, all there together. We weren’t dancing with each other, but we were all on the same dance floor. We were all boogeying together. I don’t think that happens other places. Salzman: You know, you’re right. And I don’t know about other places, but I suspect you’re right. And when you asked about the social interaction between the faculty and the students, that’s probably the most vivid opportunity, I mean vivid memory I can think of where it does occur. And it’s nice. There you’re all on the same level. You’re speaking as people being out enjoying this great time and having fun together. You’re exactly right. And I love the relationship that the university has with the alumni. Alumni come back and they love this school as much if not more so than the students do. And you can talk to an alumnus who graduated thirty years ago and they had the exact same experiences that college students have today, and memories and the things that are important to them about their college education experience remain the same. And it’s just an incredible bond. And I know living out in California, it’s great, because we all love the opportunity to get together with somebody that just knows where you’re coming from. You know you’re set apart as a W&L graduate, and we all are just kind of smug about it, but it’s a good feeling. Warren: Was Mock Convention important for you? 16 Salzman: Mock Convention was one of the most memorable experiences I had out here, and I was so lucky to be a junior and therefore have more of a leadership role. And it just so happened that I was the co-chair for the California delegation. Could you imagine? [Laughter] Warren: Big time. Salzman: So we had the most delegates, the most money, the largest vote to throw out there, the biggest party to celebrate. It was just a really great affair. And my co-chair is still a good friend and just so happens to live in San Francisco, across the street from me. I really had no idea about how some of the political processes work, and that was a great opportunity to dig into that. We did the research on it, we had to learn a lot of the rules. And that whole Mock Convention was organized and conducted, I think, very legitimately. So that was real exciting. There was several big focal points and one of them was as you introduced your state and delegated your votes, the introduction that went along with your state. Like I just read recently that the New Hampshire delegate said, "New Hampshire, home of driftwood, toilet-seat-cover manufacturing," and something else, you know. And California, we just had a field day and we had a lot of input from everybody that want us to mention its accolades. So that was fun. My partner got the opportunity to do that. It’s incredible to me, the draw that we have with really prominent politicians. When I was here, Bill Clinton spoke at that convention, and I remember the big party afterwards out at the Pavilion and Bill Clinton shows up in his limousine with his bodyguards, and he is on stage playing the saxophone. We’re looking around and it’s this beautiful setting in the woodshack, and everyone is just so happy and enjoying themselves. I can just remember thinking, only at W&L do you get this sort of experience. Mock Convention stood head and shoulders above Fancy Dress to me, and maybe it’s because it was more than just a social function, it really had kind of an underlying scholastic component, too. 17 But that really, the enthusiasm associated with that, and I can remember the floats. We spent a couple of days out in the fields making the floats, and everybody put so much time and energy into those floats. My good friend Catherine Christian designed the North Carolina float that won, and it was the basketball players from all the big colleges and how they had done and somehow they associated that with the candidates. It was really great. So everything from the parade, which brings out the entire town, to the float-making, to the convention itself, was just—I’m told it’s just like a convention, there’s so much screaming and yelling, you can’t hear a thing, throwing things. And at one point I was a little embarrassed, and I said, "We have got to be behave and act like young adults here," and somebody said, “No, this is exactly how it is at a regular convention.” So that was a highlight, a clear highlight. Warren: Well, it was this year, too. This party that Clinton showed up at, was this before he spoke or after? Salzman: He had spoken that day, and this was the party that night. And I have to be honest with you, I remember political jargon, and I don’t remember a lot else about what he said, you know, which is not, I think, a testament to me as much as maybe a testament of politicians in general. [Laughter] I don’t remember a lot of substance, but I do just remember energy, enthusiasm. But, yeah, he was at the party after he had spoken that day. Warren: So that’s interesting that he didn’t pack up and head back to Little Rock or whatever. Salzman: Yeah. Warren: Did he get psyched up by the whole thing and decide to stay around, or was that normal for somebody like that to stay around? Salzman: I think a couple of things. Bill Clinton has probably got that wild hair in him, you know. Seeing him now and having read about him for the last five or six years, I definitely think he’s got the wild hair in him. And there is a very large Little Rock 18 component here at campus, and so I feel sure that his friends’ children were here as students, some of his friends may have even been here for the weekend because a lot of alumni come back. We remember being out there at the Pavilion and saying, "This is so clever of him because we all are going to be voting for him or considering voting for him in four years," and sure enough, we were. The tough part about that convention it’s, I think, the student body, for the most part, is a conservative group and Republican by nature, so Democrats don’t tend to be welcomed whole-heartedly, but I think that Clinton probably won some brownie points out there by being someone that could hang with the rest of the group. So that was interesting. Warren: So was that a challenge to pretend to be Democrats? Salzman: Well, you know, there were a lot of people who weren’t pretending, and, I think, unlike a convention, there were a lot of people that were kind of hazing, so to speak, the Democratic speakers and responding as you would in sort of a mixed political environment, and obviously at a real convention it would be everyone supporting everyone. So people didn’t really pretend too much. If they really felt strongly, they expressed it, and I hope we didn’t make a bad impression on the speakers. Clinton, we didn’t appear to; some of the others we might have. Warren: It sounds like he had a good time. Salzman: Oh, he certainly did. I know he had a ball. And I bet it would have been fun to have been here for a Republican convention, too, because there really your heart could have been it so much more. And Clinton was very popular. He can be popular amongst Republicans at times. So it probably wouldn’t have been as hard as it would have been with, I think, a more liberal Democrat like Andrew [sic] [Jesse] Jackson, who came and spoke, and I think didn’t get as warm a reception as he deserved. Warren: I need to flip the tape over.