Stemmons interview [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Warren: Did you have any classes with Lewis? I guess he was older than you, so you probably didn't. Stemmons: No. No. Warren: One of the things that Washington and Lee is really known for and that we're real proud of is our Honor System. How did you learn about the Honor System, and what did it mean to you? Stemmons: Well, it's a very unusual structure that the school is renowned for. It's breached occasionally, but not frequently. The school would not have been the school that it was had it not been for that system, operated by the students. It's not operated by the school. There are breaches of it, but it's not usual. It's very, very—it's one of the things that made the school desirable and renowned. I don't know what it has been since then, but I've never heard anyone that's been to the school that has not felt that it was the most important thing, one thing that a man had to learn and understand and conform to if he went there. 13 Warren: I'm always curious about how it's affected people's lives later in life, how people seem to have kept those principles all through their lives. Is that your experience? Stemmons: Well, honey, the basic principal is honesty, and this was engendered through this system, as far as I'm concerned, at Washington and Lee. I think that people that went there were blessed with the fact that it was a system run by the students themselves. I think so. Warren: I think so, too. Something really unique that you were there for, and you're the first person I've talked to who was there at this time, you were there as the Depression started. Stemmons: Uh-huh. Warren: Did the stock market crash touch Lexington? Were you, as students, aware of what was happening out in the world? Stemmons: Oh, the crash was very, very severe, but not in Texas. It didn't hit Texas to the degree that it hit the Northern states. The oil field had been discovered in east Texas, and that was one of the reasons it didn't hit Texas to that degree. But the people would come down and talk about the stock crash, and I wouldn't pay any attention to them. I didn't know of anything. My father just put me through school, and he didn't talk to me about the crash, so to speak. There were a lot of people affected by it tremendously, I'm sure, but I think the boys that went to Washington and Lee were primarily of the group that had sufficient backing in their parentage to put them through it. I don't remember anyone that looked for aid from the school. I'm sure there were people. And the Thomas tribe, they fussed about it a good deal. I roomed with Bill Thomas, Jack's brother. Warren: I didn't know that. Stemmons: Bill put this book out. He was the editor-in-chief of this book. He was a Beta. He was one of the little brothers that had to join the lodge. Bill and I have been 14 very, very close friends, of course, since Ruth married me, and we've visited with them a great deal, and we've taken trips with them considerably, with Liza and Bill. They just live in Bedford, just over the mountain. Warren: I also noticed in the yearbook that you were on the crew. You were on the Albert Sidney crew. Stemmons: Yes, and I'm not proud of it. I don't think I rowed as hard as I should have. Warren: I've talked to a couple of people who were on the crew later on, but you're my first Albert Sidney man. Stemmons: Well, the crew was interesting, but—well, let's see. As I say, I've always resented the fact that I didn't think I pulled my oars as hard as I could have, and [unclear] beat us. Warren: And you were on the Ring-tum Phi? Stemmons: Yes. Warren: Was that important to you? Stemmons: Not particularly. Warren: What did you do? Did you write for the Ring-tum Phi? Stemmons: No. No. I was just in the business department of it. Warren: Oh, you kept it going, huh? Stemmons: Yeah. Warren: Well, that's an important job. Stemmons: Yeah. Warren: Well, let's switch over to your years on the board, when you were on the board of trustees. You were there during some interesting times. You were on in the late sixties, is that right, and early seventies? Stemmons: 1965 to 1970-something. Warren: It's right here, isn't it, tells us. 1965 to 1977. 15 Stemmons: Long time, and I was on the board—when Jack called me and asked me to get on this board, to consider going on this board, I thought he was drunk. And Jack [unclear] I don't think, [unclear] Jack one time was when we finally broke through and stopped life tenure on that board. I had no idea of being invited to go on the Washington and Lee board. I had no idea. My brother might have been invited, but not me. But for some reason, Jack, who was rector of the board, they wanted a man from Texas, and Jack Thomas proposed me to go, I guess, and then he called me, and I said, "Well, Jack, I can't go on that board." But I did, and it was a fabulous experience, wonderful. Warren: Tell me why. Stemmons: Wonderful. Well, it was a wonderful experience. We had good people. We hired good people. Bob Huntley was a star, absolute star. You know, he wasn't president—well, we elected him president. I was on the board that elected him president. Bob was just a real, real wonderful man and gave the support to the board that a president should give. I was adamantly opposed to coeducation—adamant. I was also adamantly determined to do away with life tenure on the board after I got on it, because there were people on it who had been on it for thirty and forty years, something like that, and they were old and addled, and they could not be constructive as a member of a live board like they had to be. So I took that position of absolute adamancy to life tenure, which was—I was appointed to life tenure on the damn board. [Laughter] And I was adamantly opposed to coeducation. Warren: Tell me about that. Stemmons: Well, I'll tell you this, that I think it's been very successful, but I still think it was wrong for Washington and Lee. The boy that's going to have lunch with us is a real good Washington and Lee boy. He works for me. Warren: Who's that? 16 Stemmons: Lee Halford. He's a Phi Beta Kappa ODK in his junior year, so you know that he's a student. Warren: That tells me something. Stemmons: He's a brilliant man, and I've invited him to have lunch with us just because I want you to get his viewpoint of Washington and Lee. Warren: Marvelous. Thank you. Stemmons: Because he's a real brilliant boy, and he's been a very successful man in our business. I didn't know what had happened to me when they appointed me head of the development committee, and I didn't realize what that entailed, but I found out pretty thoroughly. But the board tenure was delightful in every respect. Warren: Did the issue of coeducation come up during your tenure? Stemmons: Oh, good God amighty, yes, yes, yes, and we knocked it down, knocked it down, and knocked it down. Warren: Tell me about the arguments against it. Stemmons: Well, the arguments against it we didn't fool with. The arguments for it were ridiculous because we were going to a male institution, and why should you not have a male-exclusive institution? Why shouldn't you have a VMI? Why shouldn't you have one of those schools [unclear]. I would never think that the girls would see any advantage in Lexington, Virginia, to live in, going to school. Hell, they've got Sweet Briar, they've got Hollins, they've got Macon. They've got all those schools right around them and all the women [unclear], but apparently it got [unclear], and it has been successful. I'll have to admit that. Lee's daughter is going to school. She's a coed there, and one of Bill Thomas' children are going to school as coeds. There was everything to say against it and nothing to say for it. A men's school seemed to me to be a very preferable thing for a man to go to, rather than a coed school. We frequently went to the University of Virginia, but we didn't see that advantage at 17 W&L. I don't think they were at VPI. As I remember, women weren't involved in VPI, I think. Warren: Not then, no. Stemmons: But as I say, I'll have to admit that it has been successful, because it's assimilated real wonderfully well, and it's been accepted now, and I'm just what you'd call an old fogey. [Laughter] Warren: I like old fogies. Well, how did you feel when you heard the decision had been made to go for coeducation in '83? Stemmons: Oh, I thought the world had ended. I thought that they had elected people to the board of trustees that were nutty and didn't have the feeling of the school, but I was wrong, absolutely wrong, because it has been successful. I dare say that if I'd been on the board, I would have voted adamantly against it. I know I would. Warren: Is there anybody out there who still sticks by his guns? I can't find anybody who's still against it. I'd like to find somebody who's still against it. I've yet to find somebody. Stemmons: I would be against it. [Laughter] Warren: If you could vote on it today? Stemmons: If I could vote on it today, I would be against it. I think it's a better school as a men's school than it can be as a coeducational institution. There are many advantages of having the gals at hand. There are many disadvantages, too, as I see it, but I just think that a male school is a good thing. I think a female school is a good thing. I think Sweet Briar is a good thing. I think that college is a good thing. I hope that they stay that way. Warren: Oh, they're still there. They're definitely still there. Another thing that happened, I think, while you were there was that Washington and Lee started admitting black students. Was that an issue that came before the board? Stemmons: No, no. And I don't think I ever heard it. 18 Warren: Didn't hear it being talked about? Stemmons: No, I don't believe so. I don't think it was—I just don't—I'm blank. That's a blank spot. I'm surprised, when I think about it, that it wasn't thought about, but I didn't think about it. Warren: It seemed to be a big issue going on in the country, so I wondered whether it was among the board. Stemmons: Well, it's a terribly important thing to have it accommodated, because this country, while it's been dominated by the white race, they're going to be in the minority in the next few years and in the great minority in fifty or a hundred years. Warren: Times are changing. Stemmons: They certainly have. Warren: You alluded a while ago to when you retired from the board. When I was looking things up, I found an article in the alumni magazine that said that you retired at the same time that the new law school was being dedicated, and that's when they had that big party with the keg of whiskey that you were talking about, that you have the bottle of whiskey left. Stemmons: Uh-huh. Warren: I'm just wondering whether that party really was for Lewis Hall or whether it was just a big party to send you off, say "thank you" to you. Apparently it was quite a party. Stemmons: I don't understand what you mean. Warren: Well, I just think they were probably showing their gratitude for all you had done for Washington and Lee. Stemmons: Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This was a wonderful thing, to build that school down there. I've always worried—there was one thing I've always worried about, is that pine forest right next to it. They let that pine forest grow to such a degree that it's a hazard from the standpoint of fire. 19 No. Washington and Lee, they had that hooch, that bottle of hooch, I don't think I was any instrument of this, its origination, but the building of the law school and the development of the library were really important things when I was there that we would get done. Have you ever read my degree from Washington and Lee? Warren: No. Where is it? Stemmons: If you'll get over there and take it off of the wall, way over here to the right, to the left, the left, it's right there. Just pick it up. That's my degree. Well, you take it over and you read it. [Laughter] Warren: "Whereas John M. Stemmons has rendered conspicuously distinguished service to his alma mater for twelve years as a member of the board of trustees, and whereas the same twelve years have brought to the university an undue share of its thorniest problems and its most demanding challenges, and whereas John M. Stemmons has repeatedly given dynamic and forthright leadership to his alma matter in meeting these problems and challenges, and whereas John M. Stemmons has, upon his retirement from the board of trustees, been elected by his fellow trustees to the position of trustee emeritus; now, therefore, be it resolved that the board of trustees of Washington and Lee University hereby express its heartfelt appreciation to John M. Stemmons for his leadership, his generosity of spirit and of material substance, for his unflagging good humor; and, furthermore, that the board of trustees hereby convey their sense of affectionate regard and profound esteem to Ruth Stemmons, without whom only the Almighty knows what John would be, and, furthermore, that the board of trustees hereby proclaim that Cousin John is declared to be a pigeon hunter supreme, trap runner nonpareil, and, above all, a valued friend forever." My goodness. I suspect that Frank Parson's voice is in there somewhere. Stemmons: [Laughter] Probably. 20 Warren: I can hear Frank's voice in there. That sounds a bit like Frank. That's wonderful. I'll bet you were touched to receive this. I would have been. Stemmons: Well, I certainly was. You know, as I say, I wasn't a student and I never did graduate Washington and Lee, of course. There was some discussion of an honorary degree and I said, "Don't even talk about that." I consider that an honorary degree. Warren: Well, that's a pretty nice one. Stemmons: It sure is. Warren: That's a lot more personal than just a regular old piece of parchment. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about? Stemmons: No, honey, I don't know of anything. I'm sorry that my mind is so void of knowledge. Warren: You've done terrifically. You gave me false advertising at the beginning of this morning. You've done just great. We've made it through the whole list, and you've told me wonderful stories. Stemmons: All right, child. Warren: I got what I came for. Stemmons: Well, bless you. Warren: Well, thank you. Stemmons: I want you to take in after Lee, Jr., and let him tell you the stories that he has. Lee and my nephew roomed with Dr. Leyburn in his home. Warren: Oh, wonderful! Stemmons: They had, I think, one or two years, I think maybe one, I know one and maybe two years in Dr. Leyburn's home and they know his intimate work, and I want you to delve into him about Dr. Leyburn. Warren: I will. Thank you for that. [End of Interview] 21 22