Williams interview [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Williams: Another thing that happened, I wish they’d get this started. I thought I’d gotten it started. For our fifty-fifth reunion, I, on my own, determined that we should 19 give a class gift on the occasion of our fifty-fifth reunion, but it didn’t work. It was like pulling eye teeth. I had promised them so much. I had said, “Look, if you give a lot to this fiftieth reunion—” We raised $1,338,000. That "38" was part of the class of '38. I had said, “Bend your pick. Give us a lot of money this time. I’m not going to be back here again inopportuning you for money.” So they did. They came across. When I went back at the fifty-fifth, they just started turning me down flat. So on that occasion, I called up—I can’t remember who I talked to. It might have been Brian Shaw. But I said, “We want to have a parade with an elephant in it.” He said, “Elephants cost a lot of money. How much?” “Four hundred and fifty dollars.” He said, “We can get you an ostrich for free.” Ostrich? No, one of those things that grows down in the Andes, lives down in the Andes. What do you call them? They got us one of those things. And we had a great parade. We had a band. Warren: A llama? Williams: Llama. Yeah. We had a llama with the "W&L" or maybe it had "38" on its side. We had two or three high school bands. I think they still have one, don't they, for occasions here? Warren: Parades? Williams: High school bands. Warren: High school bands. Oh, yeah. Williams: I think we might have had more high school bands than ever had been had before. Anyway, it was a good parade. The elephant was too expensive for us. That must have been—I'm not sure. I lose track of these reunions. Warren: Did you start coming to reunions right away? Williams: No. My fortieth was the first one I ever went to. Warren: Is that so. Well, you made up for lost time, didn’t you? 20 Williams: And we had a lot of fun. They’ve gotten more important with each passing year, I think. Warren: Tell me what you mean by that. Williams: I don’t know what I mean. I think I mean that more people come back. More people come back with enthusiasm. More people like what they see. More people like what they do. On the occasion of our fifty-fifth, I got somebody in the alumni office to get a parachutist. Were you here then? Warren: No. Williams: So a plane left the Valley Airport just a little bit north of Staunton and flew over here, with instructions to have this guy jump forth at half-time at a football game, and he did, and he landed right smack in the middle of the field. I went out to meet him, and I took from him a check which I, in turn, gave to John Wilson. Brian Shaw, or somebody in his office, had made for us one of those cardboard checks about the size of this table—maybe four feet by eight or ten feet—with "$25,000" written on it. That was our gift to the college. I hoped then and thought then that this was a tradition that would take hold and that over a period of time would mean something, but it never took. It was a vaccination, but it didn’t work. So I have heard something since I’ve been back here, and I don’t know where I heard it, about something being done to generate an interest, a momentary interest other than the fiftieth reunion. Warren: What did you think when Washington and Lee went co-ed? Williams: I was against it for a long time. I think I was talking with Parke Rouse, who was a class or maybe two classes ahead of me. We talk from time to time, even now. He told me he had been dead-set against it, and that he’d mellowed, and he was going to change. So I thought about it, and finally I decided it would be all right. Today I get out of the Ring-tum Phi a listing of the academic standing of classes of fraternities and sororities, and I’ve noticed that the girls are always one, two, three, four, and the SAEs 21 and the Betas and the Phi Delts and the Phi Kappa Sigs are always eighteen, nineteen, twenty, and twenty-one. So I make use of that and rub our respective noses in it. I think it’s the greatest thing that’s ever happened to the college now, but I was against it for a while. I’ve been disturbed somewhat about it. I’ve got to talk with Barry. What’s Barry’s last name? He’s the law school dean. Warren: Barry. I’ll think of it. He’s not anymore. Bezanson? Williams: Oh, no, no, no. No, it’s a Barry something, succeeded. Warren: Barry Sullivan. Williams: Sullivan, yeah. I’ve got an idea maybe that—I’ve noticed that speaking on the campus is not as general as it used to be. I think perhaps it’s because it’s those that I see that don’t speak, or seem reluctant to speak, are maybe the law school students. I don’t think anybody speaks to them like they used to at Freshman Camp to the incoming classes. So I’m going to have to ask him to talk to them about it. Warren: Why is that important to you? Williams: Because I thought it was the great tradition. Of course, I always thought coats and ties was a great tradition, but they couldn’t carry through the sixties with that. I understand it. I still would like it, but I understand why they don’t do it. Warren: They do once in a while. Williams: Yeah, I was talking today with Futch. Is that that man’s name? Warren: Yes. Williams: Somebody had told me that he required students to wear ties to his class. He said it had got so that they were wearing ties on skivvy shirts, and he said, well, that was pretty bad, so I think he might have backed off a little on that. Warren: I have a picture of some students in shorts with a tie on, and I figured they must have just come out of his class, because he has that reputation. Williams: Dr. Bean would like that. Dr. Bean was just as tough as nuts. Gee, he was a tough old guy. 22 Warren: What did he teach? Williams: He taught history. And you couldn’t bluff your way through Dr. Bean’s classes. Some of my classes, I could talk my way through, but not Dr. Bean. Warren: How would you talk your way through a class? Williams: I don’t know. I seemed to get through. Dr. Ewing taught me Spanish, and I couldn’t talk my way through that. I just barely got Cs, too. I think he gave the Cs. I don’t think I earned them. Warren: Tell me about Lexington back in those days. Were there any particular places to hang out? Williams: Yeah, McCrum’s. Was McCrum’s open when you were here? Warren: Yes. Williams: You could buy beer at McCrum’s. I don’t remember them ever asking you for some sort of an I.D. to prove your age, but you could go in a get a sandwich and a beer and a milkshake. McCrum’s was quite an institution. I don’t know why it went belly-up. It did. Warren: So it had a snack bar? I never knew it to have a snack bar. Williams: Well, I guess you'd call it that. They made sandwiches up there behind the soda fountain. I don’t remember anything but sandwiches. We spent some time across at the Mayflower Inn across from our fraternity house because you could buy a bottle of beer over there, a cold beer, and it was someplace to go. There was a pool room down on the corner of—what’s that street right here that goes in front of the Episcopal church? Not Nelson. Nelson’s the next one over, I guess, isn't it? Warren: That’s West Washington Street. Williams: There was a pool room on the corner of Washington and Jefferson, I guess, sort of across the street from the Dutch Inn. Is the Dutch Inn still there? Warren: It’s for sale if you want to buy it. 23 Williams: No, I don’t. Warren: Maybe you could get Marjorie to move into the Dutch Inn. [Laughter] Williams: She doesn’t want to come to Lexington. She likes where we’re living. There was one pool room there, and there was another pool room on the second floor of the building catty-corner from the post office. I think it now does some sort of reproducing, but then it was a place that made sandwiches, milkshakes, and that sort of thing, and a pool room upstairs. I think they only had two pool tables. The law school professors I’d see up there a lot. I guess I’d see them up there because I guess I was up there a lot. I guess we would hang out at our own fraternity house or some friend’s fraternity. I’ve often wondered whatever happened to the Old Blue. The Old Blue was an old inn. Long, narrow. I feel like it was one room deep. There’s a grass plot, a grass triangle, down—I can’t tell you where it is. Do you know where the Beta house is? Well, it was just north of the Beta house. There’s a filling station across from the Old Blue. I think students hung out there a lot. I don’t think I was ever in there but once or twice. There wasn’t a lot to do here. When I was here, the repeal of Prohibition came in just before I got here. I think probably the spring of ‘34 or the first part of ‘34 was when Prohibition was repealed. I don’t remember—I remember going into the liquor store. I remember buying liquor, but I don’t remember ever being challenged as to my age. Maybe I was. Not much went on. Not like it is now. There was certainly nothing that the college did to make your social life more reasonable, more tenable. Really, I think you probably had to get out of town. I'm not sure of that. Warren: Did you use to go out to Goshen? Williams: Yeah, I went out to Goshen. Not a lot. Went down in springtime. There was a place out here called—I can’t remember. But it was an old house, we went up to the second floor. It was where you went swimming. I wonder what the name of that place was. I can’t remember. I didn’t go to it. You just went up to it after a dance, went 24 there two or three o’clock in the morning to go swimming or maybe play baseball at first light. Warren: Is it Zollman’s? Williams: I can’t remember the name of it. Some person older than I am would have to tell you the name of it. Warren: Did you have a car? Williams: My senior year. Warren: How did you get back and forth to Lynchburg? Williams: My friend Jack McNeil had a car, and he also was courting a girl in Lynchburg. There was another, he was a fraternity brother, Tommy Martin. He was from Lynchburg. He had a car. But you just had to hustle up a ride. I don’t remember ever going over when I didn’t have a ride back before I went. Warren: How was the drive going across the mountains? Williams: Tougher than it is now, a lot tougher. We were talking at lunch about Jimmy Watts, who was two classes ahead of me. My freshman year, though we were the same age, Jimmy was a junior. Jimmy left to go to Harvard Law School. He was out for football my freshman year when he got the word that his brother had been killed in an automobile accident on his way down to Raleigh, North Carolina. They were taking— he had three kids with him. Maybe there were three in the car, but they were all killed. So Jimmy left the field, and I remember seeing him running across the bridge on his way home. I don’t know why I brought that up. Something you asked me. There’s no point to the story. Warren: About driving. Williams: Oh, yeah, right. Warren: I look at those roads, and I say I don’t know how these kids survive this. Williams: It’s a lot better now than it was then. So really I can’t think of anything memorable. You know, when you had a dance or when you had Fancy Dress, of 25 course, that was the big one. We drove over to Charlottesville for Easter week every year because that was a good dance. Warren: They had the dance over there? Williams: Easter week. It was a whole series of dances. They’d have the big-name bands just like we’d had them here for Fancy Dress. Warren: Can you remember who played at Fancy Dress when you were here? Williams: I think Al Kemp did. Glen Gray, maybe. I can remember they were both here, as was Kay Kyser, but I can’t remember which dance they were at. It was pretty reasonable what they charged to come here. It wasn’t a lot of money. Certainly it might have been a lot of money then, but I think the whole orchestra was maybe $1,000 to $1,200. I don’t know what they pay them now. Warren: More than that. Williams: I’m sure. Well, you know for somebody that doesn’t have very many memories, you’ve sure given me a wonderful interview. Williams: Well, I’ve got a lot of memories, a lot of which I don’t want to tell you about. No, all of mine are reasonably decent. I mean, they are probably not repeatable to you, but we had a good time here. A lot of those times involved dances and house parties and that sort of thing. I really don’t remember house parties here. Some fraternities, I think, would have a house party and turn over some floor in the house to the girls or maybe they’d get out of the house. I don't remember how it worked, because we never did that. But a fine place, and I do get emotional about it. I choke up all the time when I talk about it. I don’t like to, but I do it. I almost choked up when I was talking with— what’s Futch’s first name, you know? Warren: Dave Futch. Williams: I was talking with him today about something, probably about our son having been here. He’s got a friend in economics, in the commerce school. All of a sudden I can’t say his name. His wife’s name is Fay. But I guess really my great 26 fondness for Washington and Lee comes from that which they did for our son, which was make him a better person. Warren: Well, I understand, because I’ve been choking up doing these interviews. I’ve had more than one person shed tears doing the interviews. When I talk to some people who were involved in the coeducation decision, that is very emotional, very emotional. Williams: Well, I was certainly against it for a long time. I do remember that Park Rouse said in so many words, “It’s not going to be bad.” Of course, I had two daughters that decided they didn’t want to come here because they had sororities and fraternities. I don’t know what that had to do with their decision. I feel like one of their friends must have been hurt, not having gotten a bid, something like that. I had another daughter who came here and was interviewed and wasn’t accepted. She subsequently went to Skidmore, where she made Phi Beta and graduated magna cum laude or summa, I can’t remember which. I think summa’s the highest. Graduated summa cum laude. So I would like for one of our grandchildren to come here to school, but I’ve only got probably one more chance. I don’t think it looks like her grades are good enough to make it. Maybe. She’s working. She goes to a little school up on Long Island—that’s not so, Long Island—up on Cape Cod. Well, anyway. You’ve about had it. Warren: I’m having a good time. Anything more you want to say, you can. Williams: I wish I could think of something to say. Warren: You know, there’s one more thing. I did a little homework just like Wilson did, got the Calyx out. You were in the Glee Club. Williams: Yeah. Warren: Was that important? Did you have a good time? Williams: Yeah. John—what was his name, the director of the Glee Club. I can’t say his name. He was pretty good, but he was a martinet. He gave me a bad time if I missed practice. But I liked it. I just like singing. I didn’t do much. I mean, away from 27 the fraternity, I mean, away from playing poker wherever the game was. Graham, John Graham. He was a good director because you did have to come there, and you did have to sing, and you did have to sing the right notes. But Glee Club is a lot of fun. Warren: Did you travel around doing concerts? Williams: You know, I can’t remember. I think maybe we went to Washington once. I can’t remember. The trip must have not been too important, or I would have remembered it. I guess we went to Randolph-Macon and Sweet Briar. I know we went to Randolph-Macon once. But it was a lot of fun. But I didn’t do anything much, certainly nothing that was memorable. Warren: Well, you dredged up some wonderful memories here today. Williams: Well, you’re nice to do this. Warren: I’m having a great time. Williams: And I’m sorry I got the wrong place, but I was there on time. Warren: We both were there on time. We just didn’t know where each other was. Williams: Well, I asked Margie, “Marge, where do you think I’m supposed to be?” She said, “I think you’re supposed to do it right here.” I don’t know where she got that idea. I probably told her that. So anyway. Warren: We’re here, we had a good time, and I sure do thank you. Williams: Well, you sure are welcome. [End of interview] 28