September 2007 Interview with Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum By Isabelle Chewning [Items enclosed in brackets [ ] are not on the audio, but are editorial notes inserted for clarification] [Tape 2] Chewning: It’s about twenty after two. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: My watch has been acting up that’s the reason a while ago at 11:00 my watch said twenty minutes to one and I thought, “What’s going on?” Chewning: So your mother had your clothes made? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, your daddy would know Mary Lotts. I don’t know who lives in that house now. You know where the berry farm is [Orchardside on Raphine Road]? Okay, then the next house, the house that you turn and the lane goes way back and you can’t see the house from the road [49 Raphine Road; Harvest Lane near the intersection of Raphine Road and Brownsburg Turnpike]. There just before you get up on the New Providence Road [Brownsburg Turnpike]. Chewning: Oh, I know where you’re talking about. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Okay, okay my grandmother’s brother lived there, Uncle Jim and Aunt Ann Lotts. And Mary, I don’t know how she was kin to them, I don’t have any idea, but she, I know she lived there and Mary Stuart lived there with her. Mary Stuart Lotts. And John Henry Lotts lived there with them. And Miss Wilson she lived there. A Miss Wilson, lived there. And Mary sewed for everybody. So mother had her make my clothes. Chewning: Did you have a lot of clothes? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No I didn’t have a lot of clothes. Back then you didn’t. Maybe that was something about the Depression but I didn’t realize, but it was like you couldn’t buy chubby clothes then. You just didn’t buy them. So Mary made all my clothes. Chewning: Did you have a special dress for Sunday? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, I had special one, and I always got a new pair of white Sunday school shoes for summer and a new pair of patent leather shoes. And then for winter I got what they called Oxfords. And then the brown and white ones, saddle oxfords, I got those. But I didn’t get, didn’t have many shoes. No. Chewning: So you went to church at New Providence [Presbyterian Church]? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: New Providence. Chewning: Did you go pretty much every Sunday? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh yes. We sat in New Providence, I was trying to think when I was doing this paper, I think we sat in church either one or two rows behind where your grandparents [Madison M. and Edna Morton Sterrett] sat. But we sat to the right of the middle aisle and they sat more toward the left over next to that other aisle. Chewning: They were six pews back. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Okay, that’s were we sat. Chewning: That’s what I remember. They were always six back. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Okay, that’s about were we sat. And I went to Bible School. Mr. [Tolerace J.] Wiseman took the bus to Bible School. And Lou [Wiseman Stuart] and I sang in the choir. Chewning: Oh, you did? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: We sang in the choir and… Chewning: Are you a good singer like Mr. Whitesell? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, I’m not, I don’t think so, no, I don’t think so. I always sang alto. But I sang in the Glee Club. I sang in our church choir. Chewning: So you had Glee Club in high school? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh yes, Miss Trimmer, while she was there she did everything. She coached ball, taught Latin, taught English, put on plays, and everything. But then Miss Trimmer wasn’t there when I got to high school, she was not there. She had already gone. She gone and I, let’s see, I had two principals I had, a Mr. Bodkin [ph?] and a Mr. Stockner [ph?] was principal when I was there, when I graduated. Chewning: And did Mrs. [Mollie Sue] Whipple play for the Glee Club? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I believe she did. I believe she did. Um.. hm.. I think she did, and I played on the basketball team. Chewning: Oh you did? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I played. Chewning: Oh, the Whitesells are really basketball players! Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Lou and I played; if they had ball, Lou and I played. Yeah, we played basketball. Chewning: Did you travel to Fairfield and… Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh yeah, in fact the year I was a junior and a senior, I think we won a county championship both years! Chewning: What schools did you play? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: We played Goshen, Effinger, Natural Bridge, and Fairfield, and Spottswood, Middlebrook. Chewning: You had a big schedule there! Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Mm.. hmm.. we did. Then we went, that year we went that was the year before Earl got there, I believe, when we won the district. We went to Roanoke and played for the championship there. We played a school called Bent Mountain. I’ve never seen such big girls in all of my life! When we went in there we thought we were going to whip them good, and they really ate us up! I mean they were big girls! Chewning: Did you have six players on the team them? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No. Chewning: Two forwards, two guards, and two rovers? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, no we had two forwards. We had a center forward and then two forwards and two guards. Chewning: So five. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Five. I played center. Chewning: Because you were tall. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Mm-hm.. We had a good time. Chewning: I bet, sounds like it. Now did you have to take Home Ec in high school? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, I took three years Home Ec. Still can’t sew. Chewning: Can you cook? You can cook though. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I can cook, but I can’t sew. I can’t sew. I laughed at Mrs. Carson so many times. They passed that- we had what they call practical. The written exam I knew I could do that, but then you had to draw a bucket something practical to do. Do you know Anna Black, Anna Miller Black, who was the Commissioner of Revenue for Rockbridge County? Chewning: No I don’t think so. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: She graduated with me, she sewed. I said “If I draw a buttonhole out of there I just may as well give it up, because I will not graduate. I cannot make a buttonhole.” I said, “I can’t even sew a button on, much less make a buttonhole!” And she said “Well, if I get any of that cooking stuff I won’t be able to do it either.” She sat right next to me and they passed that bucket. She could really sew. They passed that bucket, Mrs. Carson passed that bucket around and I reached down there, I pulled that thing out and it said “Biscuits”. Oh, I’m happy! And Anna pulled the next one out and she got the bound button hole! We laughed about that! Chewning: That was fortunate. So everyone passed? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Everyone did. Chewning: Everyone graduated? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Everyone graduated, all 18 of us. Chewning: Eighteen in your class? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, not many of us left. Chewning: How many boys and how many girls? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh, I’m not sure. Chewning: About even? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I don’t believe there were quite as many boys. But somebody told me the other day, I think Betty told me the other day, that there aren’t but two boys left because Bobby Bolen died last week. Chewning: He was in your class? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: He was in our class. I think Betty told me there’s just two boys left, so, a lot of the girls. So every morning when I wake up I’m lucky. Chewning: What do you remember about World War II? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: A lot. One thing I remember I’ve cried, when -- I cried a lot when, you know, Pearl Harbor because I thought John Layton was going to have to go. And I guess by that time I had realized we didn’t fight as much then, I mean, we were more mature and I guess I thought, well, you know, I’d lost my daddy and now if my big brother’s going to have to go. Of course so many had gotten killed. Troy Hickman, who was John Layton’s best friend, was killed. One of the first ones. George Slusser. Chewning: Where was Troy Hickman killed? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Troy, I’m not sure where he was killed. I believe though it was like, he was probably in Germany, somewhere like that. And George Slusser and George East, and a couple more. But I was just afraid he [John Layton] was going to have to go. And then we, Miss Trimmer had a what she called a Victory Corps. You wore a certain day of the week, once a week. She had Captains and Sergeants and Lieutenants and all of them you’d wear a white blouse and a navy skirt and red tie around you, and you marched. Of course you marched for Miss Trimmer anyway. We marched in and out and all like that. And then we had-- and I think Lou, I don’t remember doing that, but I think Lou did and I think maybe I went with her. When you practiced for black outs. You'd have to go, I believe it was up at the school they had the watch tower. You’d take your turn watching. I think Lou was one of those who did that. Chewning: So you’d stay up all night? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, no, no, it was in the day, you know, not at night. And then we’d all watch defense things. Made the little books and we’d take our little money and go down to the post office and buy one stamp or two stamps and paste it in there and then we’d get the book full and then you could buy a bond. Chewning: You did that? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I’m not sure how many of us ever got enough to get a bond. But we bought the stamps. And then of course I remember, you know, you couldn’t get hose. Mother couldn’t do much baking because you couldn’t get sugar and couldn’t get coffee. Couldn’t get gas. There was something else you couldn’t get -- Chewning: And this is while she was running the business? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah this was back, yeah she was still at home then. I think that’s when margarine first came out and it was white. There was a little orange tablet in a bag about the size of a fingernail. In a little piece of plastic. And then you mixed that up, and then it made it yellow. I remember Mrs. [Hassie] Dice when she lived on the side of us across the field, she used to let me mix that margarine up and make it color. Chewning: So you felt more like you were eating butter? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Mh-mm.. tasted terrible. Margarine now I don’t think it’s really that bad, but oh that was terrible, terrible, that margarine. But you know during the war it was, you entertained. We entertained ourselves. Lou and Jude and I all three loved to dance. We played the Hit Parade that came on on Saturday night, and we’d put that radio on and we’d go out in the summertime and that’s when they were living right there beside of me. And we’d go out there and dance on the porch or they’d come over to our house and we’d dance on the porch. When Carl [Wiseman, Lou’s brother] was in Italy, of course there was no TV and not much news. Gabriel Heater came on at six o’clock at night and I can see Mrs. Wiseman yet sitting there beside of that radio listening, just intensely listening. Of course he was wounded and sent back here to Norfolk, and I ended up going down there [to Woodrow Wilson Rehabilitation Center] with them. Everywhere they went I was counted as one of the family. I really owe a great deal to Mr. and Mrs. [Tolerace J.] Wiseman because when Mother was gone -- of course John Layton was there, and Virginia was there, but that wasn’t like an older person, you know. And I mean I just practically lived there. And they counted me as one of their children. And even after mother married Hugh [McNutt], they always went to the McNutt's on Christmas day. And I had my Christmas with Mother and [Hugh and John Layton’s family] on Christmas Eve. We had our big Christmas on Christmas Eve, so on Christmas morning, I mean, we’d get up and children would check for Santa Claus and everything and then the next place we went, we always went to the Wisemans for Christmas dinner because that was just like home. And I was with Lou, sat up with Lou the night Mrs. Wiseman died. Lou and I sat at the hospital, but they were really good to me. They were really, really good to me. She was just like a second mother to me. But the war was, and I remember when it was over we were -- a car full of us went to Lexington and just sat on the street and watched everybody celebrate. Of course that’s what you did Saturday night. You know, you just went to a movie and then sat on the street and watched people go by. If you were lucky you might get a grilled cheese sandwich and a Coke at McCrums [drug store on Main Street in Lexington], but that was the extent of the fun we had. Chewning: So did you go out with some of the boys from Brownsburg before you met Mr. Chittum? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, a couple or three! [Section deleted.] Chewning: But you would go into Lexington for Saturday night? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, that’s were we’d go, Lexington. Chewning: Did you do most of your shopping in Lexington? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh.. hmm.. We’d be at Adair Hutton. About the only place up there to shop was Adair Hutton, I guess. Chewning: Was Leggett’s there then? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No. Chewning: So Adair Hutton was there for quite a while? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, it was. Mm-hm. Yeah. Closed on Wednesday afternoon in the summertime. Chewning: Did you shop for groceries at the stores in Brownsburg? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: You know, now that I don’t really have any recollection of because when Daddy was running the store, we got them out of the store. And then John Layton ran the store and they had their own groceries. So there wasn’t much going to stores. Now Mother, when Daddy was living after he closed the store, Mother would go to Staunton to do things, shop. And she would go to the A&P store because I remember watching her grind that coffee, A&P coffee, and she would do that. And she’d get groceries out there. But she grew most of everything. My grandparents butchered, that was a really a real treat. Grandma and Granddaddy [Martha and Lucian Dudley], they usually butchered on Thanksgiving. Chewning: They’re the ones who lived in Brownsburg? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Mm.. hm.. they had this real high back porch. And so I would with a couple other kids there in Brownsburg we’d go and we’d sit on the back high porch so we could look down and see them butcher. That was great fun. And then they made apple butter. Usually made apple butter around Halloween night and Halloween day and there again we’d, people would come in, Grandma’s friends and Mother, they would peel apples the night before and then make the apple butter the next day and then Grandma would make biscuits when the apple butter was finished and then we’d do that. We’d have biscuits that Grandma made. Chewning: Did you cook it in a big copper kettle? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah. I remember my kids at school when I'd tell them about butchering and apple butter and a lot of times, we’d be sitting there maybe two months later and we'd have some time on our hands and I'd say, "What do you all want to do while we have this few minutes?" "Tell us about those hogs again!" They loved to hear that story about the butchering. And Dan's daddy – Dan Franklin – Zack [Franklin] , my Granddaddy wouldn’t butcher unless Zack could help. Zack, that's what he did around town. And he stayed booked up. But Granddaddy would always have to have Zack, booked him way ahead of time. So he could help. Chewning: I know Bud Martin told me that Zack was really good with the animals. If an animal was sick, he would go out and get something out of the woods. He knew what would cure them. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Well, Dan told me that-- one day I was over at Dan's, not too long before Dan died, before he went to the nursing home and he was talking and he said, "You know one thing?" He said, "My daddy raised – “ I think Dan told me there were ten of those kids. And Dan’s Mother died, I think when maybe the youngest one was born. He said, "And my daddy raised all ten of us.” And he said “We all grew up, I guess we are, good citizens. We all grew up and all of us had jobs, and pretty good jobs." And I said, "Well, Dan, your daddy never did remarry, did he?" He said, "No. He said he was going to raise his kids himself." And he did. And every one of those kids really turned out well. Chewning: What was his job when they butchered? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh, Zack did everything. He did the cutting of the-- hanging them up and all. Oh, he just did everything. And he did it-- everybody did it at home. You didn’t take it like you do now to these packing places. You did it at home and he helped cut the meat to make the sausage and all that. Chewning: Did most of it get frozen or was it cured? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh, cured. Cured. Hams were sugar cured. You'd hang them up in a smoke house. And Grandma had a spring house. And we went and Daddy had a cow and of course Grandma and them had a cow. They had a spring house, it's torn down now. And that little creek ran down and then that's where all the milk was kept in crocks down there. She'd put a plate on it and put a rock on the top of the plate so the water wouldn’t get in it. And Mother would tell me to go to Grandma’s to get some cream for whipping if she was going to make a cream pie or something. And everything-- Grandma had chickens. She tried to teach me to milk and I never could learn to milk. Never could. Daddy tried to teach me and Grandma said she believed she could do it. She could teach me. And I tried and tried and tried. But I could not do it. [Laugh] I was trying, I was determined, but I could not learn to milk. Chewning: So they had chickens and hogs and cows. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Just one cow. And then of course right next to Grandma was a house, and that's where the spring was. Everybody in Brownsburg got water from that spring. I don't think that spring is there any more. [Phone rings, but Mrs. Chittum lets the answering machine pick up.] Chewning: So you didn’t learn to milk. Did you help in the garden? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh, yes, I helped in the garden. Mostly what I did and John Layton did, Mother was-- Daddy didn’t do much in the garden. And John Layton never liked garden work, and I still tease him about it. But we'd have to pick up-- there were a lot of rocks down there in that garden. So we'd have to pick up a lot of rocks. And that's what we did -- and pulled weeds. We did a lot of weed pulling. John Layton didn’t like it and he used to say, "I don’t like this garden stuff. And if I ever get a garden of my own, I'm not working that old garden." But... Chewning: [Laugh] Somebody works it because it always looks good. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, Jinx [Virginia Wade Whitesell]. Of course I've always called her Jinx, everybody up there calls her Virginia, but our family, we call her Jinx. And she's always worked a garden and loves to work the garden. But we had a garden when I lived in Staunton. And we had a big garden. I mean, a big garden. But when we moved down here, we just said we'd had enough of it. Chewning: Now where did Mrs. Whitesell live, Virginia? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: She lived at Rockbridge Baths, she lived there. And her daddy drove the school bus out to Brownsburg. Mr. Kite Wade. And Kenny Beard's wife, Ruth, is her sister, and Bernice [Nye]. Chewning: And when did they [John Layton and Virginia] get married? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I was in the seventh grade, I think, when they got married. I'm not sure exactly what year that was. But in 1940, I was in the fourth grade, so in ‘41 I was in fifth— probably about 1943. Chewning: And they got married in New Providence? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: They got married at the manse. Just at the manse, and Ruth and I went and I don't know -- Ruth and I were talking about it one time we were together not long ago, who else went. I guess, I don't know whether Mother went or whether her parents went or not. But I know Ruth and I were there at the wedding. I'm not sure what-- I guess Dr. Walthal maybe was there because he was there when Daddy died. He may have still been there. Dr. Locke White’s the one that married us. Chewning: So you did a lot of canning and things from your garden? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh, at home? Mother canned a lot and of course Grandma did too. And Mother and Grandma canned together. We didn’t have freezers then either. Chewning: Was there a cannery in Brownsburg or did you do it all at home? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, did it all at home. I don't remember a cannery being there. If it was there, it was after I left. We did it all at home. Of course, you know, we had a wood stove – I mean a coal stove. We burned coal. I remember perspiration just pouring off of Mother. I know one of the things Mother was so [excited about] -- where John Layton and Jinx's kitchen is now, it was a back porch. It was a screened in back porch. And I remember Daddy bought Mother an oil stove. It was yellow and green, it had an oven on it and everything. And in summer, that's what she cooked on in the summer time because it was cooler out there. Chewning: Oh, on the porch? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, on that porch, the screened in porch. We had a table out there. It was kind of like, you know, kind of like a sun porch. Chewning: And that's where she did the canning? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: That's where she did canning but up until then, she did it on the woodstove. I mean coal stove, we burned coal not wood. Grandma burned wood. We burned coal. Chewning: Who do you remember most from growing up? Who were the people that really stand out in your memory? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Well I guess the children -- the Carwell girls were there. And we had a lot of fun together too. The Carwell girls and Lou and Jude and I. We [went swimming in the creek.] Mrs. Wiseman wouldn’t let us go unless she went with us – or some adult – down there at the big creek-- you know where the Carwell's lived? Chewning: Yes. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Well you cross that fence and go there in that meadow and there was a big tree and the limb like bowed out and you could swing out on that and jump. And we just shooed the cows out of the way and got on it there with the typhoid fever and whatever else was in there and had fun all afternoon! Sometimes we'd take a picnic down there with us. Mildred [Carwell] died not too long ago. She was a basketball player too. And Catherine is still living. Cat, I call her. In fact, I talked to her the other day ‘cause I came home and she'd been here with a box of tomatoes and left them for me. And her husband's dead. And another little girl that I played with, she's dead too. There weren't actually that many children there. But it was just sort of everybody. I guess the person who I really looked up to was Mrs. [Mollie Sue] Whipple, and Mrs. John Patterson. Mrs. Rosenell Patterson taught me math. And I really looked up to her, and Mr. Tom Bosworth taught me Latin. He had retired from Richmond. He taught in Richmond and then he came back to Brownsburg he taught high school there. And I really-- he was a pretty strong character builder too. [But Mr. and Mrs. T. J. Wiseman were like second parents to me. I shall never forget how good they were to me. I still miss them at times.] Chewning: Did he [Mr. Tom Bosworth] have a store? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No that was his brother [Mr. Jim Bosworth] that had the store and the Post Office. And Mr. Tom never was married. He lived in the house where [the Frosts lived.] The house I was telling you I think is for sale [2690 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Chewning: Oh, the Frosts. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: The Frosts, yes. That's when Mr. Tom lived. At Thanksgiving or Easter or Christmas, we'd say "Mr. Tom we're not going to have any homework now for Latin are we?" And he would always shut his eyes, and he'd say, “Yes indeed, the day after a holiday is a working day and you have to prepare for it.” So we had homework. No question. We had homework. Chewning: But you learned Latin! Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, we learned Latin. That's right. Chewning: So was there competition between the stores, between Mr. Supinger’s store, and the Huffmans, and the Bosworths, and the Whitesells? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I don't really think so. Mr. Bosworth didn't have much in his. It was just more, I don't know, it was more like an old, old old store and it didn't stock very much stuff in it. You know, just a very little stuff. And of course the Supingers, I guess, and the Huffmans were more in competition down there across from each other. And then of course the Farm Store came, see. And Daddy had closed his up but then when John Layton reopened, see those others were gone. They had-- Mr. Supinger had died and the Huffmans’ place had closed up. I think when John Layton opened back up. But I don't remember any, you know, hard feelings or anything like that. Maybe I just didn’t pay any attention, didn't even know about it. Chewning: Did people usually go to one or the other or did they take turns and go to one? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, I think they just did like they do now. Where somebody might sell this cheaper than that one, and another one cheaper than that one, and just bought different things from different people, I think. I just-- I don't really-- I don't have a very good memory of-- I know in our store, where everything was placed and I know what it was like and-- but I don't have a good memory of whether people bought different things at different places. Chewning: Were you ever at Mrs. Morris' church [Friends Lighthouse Mission Church]? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh yes, oh yes. I went over there for Sunday school. I don't think they had it in morning, they had it in the afternoon but... Chewning: So you’d go to New Providence Sunday School in the morning -- Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: And then she had lots of evangelistic services and so we all went. Mrs. Morris was a dear, dear, little lady. She died such a-- had such a sad life at her death. She had, I guess now we call it Alzheimer's but back then we call it hardening of the arteries. She didn't really know much. Chewning: Did she die in Brownsburg? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No I think she went-- I think her son lived in Newport News. She had a son and a daughter. And her daughter, [Georgia] lived in Baltimore. And I believe her son’s name was Clarence, and he lived in Newport News. And I think she died-- I think probably he took her down there and put her in a home. She was so mixed up and confused. Chewning: How long was she in Brownsburg? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh now that's one thing I remember early on that she was always there. And she had every room in her house [2671 Brownsburg Turnpike] named. Chewning: What kind of names? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Well like Haven Rest, and the Morris Room. And that little building right out at the back was called William Penn. And the Prayer Room was upstairs. And Quiet something-- I can't think what that one was. It was Quiet something. Chewning: Did you go to her house? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh yeah, yes. John Layton says I went to everybody's house. He teased me. We'd talk about these things and he said, “Mother never knew where to find you. You were at somebody's house all the time. No matter whose it was!” If they said, “Come in,” I went! [They would always say, “Come on in.”] Chewning: Was Mrs. Morris old? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Well I thought she was old, but she wasn't old, [but I think she lived to be pretty old. Many people in Brownsburg called her “Mother Morris” or “Little Mother Morris.”] Chewning: But she was a widow and her children where grown? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh yes, grown, yeah. Chewning: So she lived there by herself. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, she lived in that great big house by herself. Until this family came that she took in, and then they lived there. Chewning: Did they take care of her for rent? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Well, no, they just-- they really-- I don't know how to-- they just-- he worked. I think he worked at the Highway Department for a while. I think that's what he did. And she didn't work anywhere but she had those three children. But that house, when they left, was nothing like it was when they came in. It was in terrible shape. Chewning: When was that when she started to... Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Well let me see. Now that time as far as years -- she had already moved away from there when Daddy died in 1940. She wasn't there then I don't believe. I don't believe she was there then. Chewning: Did she sell the house before she left? Did it sit empty for a while? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No the Swopes bought it. Carl Swope and Marie. They were the first people who bought it. I don't know who-- I guess they bought it from the younger of her children or whoever she left it to. Because I'd already gone then and I didn't hear much about it. She was an evangelist, too, and she preached like that. Chewning: So you heard her preach? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh yeah, she was a real tiny, little lady but boy she could really preach. And there was a cemetery up there back of that church too. There's some people who’ve been buried up there. In that... Chewning: In the yard where the Andersons live? And there are no markers? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, there’re no markers. Chewning: Were they just paupers that -- Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No they were people, I think, they went to that church. I think there are about three or four of them up there. John Layton [may] know. One of them was a baby. I'm trying to think whose baby that was. It’s just left me. There are a couple of people there. I think there are two or three buried up there. Chewning: What kind of church was it? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Friends. It was called the Friends Church. And the Church of the Nazarene in Staunton bought it. And they moved it down there. And it wasn't down there very long until it burned down. Chewning: Oh what a shame. Lou Stuart gave me a collection plate for the Museum, the Brownsburg Museum. Somehow she had this little wooden collection plate from that church. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh really? Chewning: Yes, I think Mrs. Morris had given it to her parents – to the Wisemans – when she left. And then Lou donated it to the Museum. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh well that was nice. Yeah, that was nice. Chewning: So we have a little memento of the church even if the building burned. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Of what I can remember, we’d sit on the porch and Mother would say to Daddy, “We ought to go over there to church tonight.” She had a lot of night evangelist services. Mother would say “We ought to go over there to church tonight.” And he'd say, “I don't see any need of me walking over there to that church when I can sit right here in this chair, comfortable, and hear ever word she's saying!” Of course, no air conditioning and the doors and windows were all open. And I mean she put the wrath of God right on you! She really did. And even when the Asbury church up there, when they had their lawn party. I remember one night Lou and Boyd and Earl and I had been somewhere. That was before we were married, any of us were married. And we got home and one of the four of us said – It was the night of the lawn party, and we had gotten a cantaloupe somewhere, and one of us said, “Go up there to the church and get some vanilla ice cream.” So they did. And we sat there at Lou’s and ate cantaloupe with that vanilla ice cream. I never did go up there to the lawn party but we did do that. Chewning: Where were the lawn parties? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: They were up there-- I guess they have a basement to that church. I guess they did... Chewning: It was called a lawn party even though it was inside? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Maybe so, I don’t know. I never really knew. They had one every year. Every year they had a lawn party. Every year. And then another thing Brownsburg had, and I remember, John Layton said he remembered it too. The lot between us and the house next to us where Lou lived. They had a – John Layton said he didn't know what they called it. He said he thought maybe they called it a side show, he didn't know. But this group of people came and I think they came more than one year. And they put this big tent up in that yard, in that lot. And they had a, like a variety show. And they had girls with these fancy dresses on, you know, all that stuff. I remember... Chewning: Did you go? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I don't think I went. I don’t think I went, but I would just remember them being there. I told John Layton, it seemed to me like they came over to our house and got some water or something to use. I don't think they-- I don't know how many nights they were there. But I remember they came, I know one year, and maybe more than that, and put on this show. [Laugh] I don't know what kind of show it was. Chewning: Did you always have indoor plumbing in your house? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No we didn't. We were one of the first people that got it. I mean I'm not saying we were the first. But I mean like a group of five or six got it about the same time and we were in that group. No, I remember very well when we did not because I was always afraid of snakes. And I just always wanted Mother to go with me because I was afraid I'd step on a snake or something. But no, we had an outside privy. Chewning: And do you remember-- did you always have electricity? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes. Now Grandma and Granddaddy never had electricity. Chewning: Oh, they didn't? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, they never did. And Daddy wanted to put electricity in that house, and we wanted to put water in the house, and they just wouldn't hear to it, just did not want it at all. So I thought I was really big the first time Grandma let me carry the lamp, because I used to spend a lot of nights with Grandma. And I thought I was really big stuff when I carried that lamp by myself. It was fun growing up there. It was fun. Chewning: Oh, it must have been. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: It was fun. Chewning: And it sounds like you had great friends. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: We did. We did. And Halloween we had fun on Halloween. We'd take somebody's chair off of their porch and put it on somebody else's porch, you know, that kind of stuff, nothing bad, but move it all around. And it was just-- we had a good time. And there in that lot, in the winter time. I had a wool snow pants -- snowsuit, and I'd stay out in that lot and sleigh ride until my legs would chap, and had ice hanging on the pants. I'd go in a get warm and right back out there again. Go all the way down to that creek. Chewning: Yeah, that's a pretty good hill. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh. Now, I'm not sure, but I think that was some kin -- maybe that was Uncle Letcher's son that lived back there. I guess that's where Leroy [Stewart] lives now down at the bottom of that hill. Pitt Pleasants used to live down there, and he had lots of kids. Boy, we had fun with them. Wynonna was one of them, and Dickie. Dickie lived in Lexington. I think Dickie was pretty well thought of up there. Vivian was one of them. There was a whole bunch of them. I used to love to go down there and play. Chewning: Were they your age? Some of those were your age? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh. There's always one. Uh-huh. There was always somebody around there that was my age. The Carwells, they had a big family so they had them all ages, and we had a lot of fun with them. Chewning: Do you remember when their house burned? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Oh, yes, uh-huh, I sure do. I sure do remember that. You could see it from our upstairs window. Mr. Roscoe Carwell's mother, and my grandmother [Martha Dudley] were sisters. And Miss Maggie Lotts that lived in Newport, some of her people go to-- no, who is that that goes to your all's church, New Providence Church. Davis. Mary Glenn Davis. Aunt Maggie lived in that house where they live, and that was grandma's sister. And Roy Lotts, his daddy was Grandma's brother. It was a big family, I think. Who knows. Chewning: What about Christmas? You said you always had... Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: We had cedar trees, and I don't remember who got the tree. I guess Daddy did when we were little, but then after I got big enough, there again, I guess that's why Lou and I were so close. We did everything together, and Mrs. Wiseman and Lou and Jude and I would go get the tree, and we'd go either up on the hill back, way back up in there [back of the school], but then a couple of times Carl took us out there as you go past where Mary Patterson lives, up that hill as you go into Raphine. He'd take us out there and let us out and we'd scrounge those hills and we'd cut our own. And it was always a cedar tree. We didn't really have big Christmases though. I mean nothing like kids do now. I remember one year I got a bicycle, but it was a used one. Of course I didn't know it was used, but I found out later. I knew later as I got older. But I got a Betsy Wetsy doll I remember one Christmas, and a nurse’s kit, a doctor's kit, and then I got a real pretty doll, a big doll, one Christmas. They used to have, at New Providence, what they called the Chrysanthemum Show. And they had a meal, and it was a big, big affair. And upstairs in one of those rooms at the top of the steps, one of those rooms has a little platform like in it. I can't think what room that was. But they had a wedding, a doll wedding there one time. And Lou's and Jude's doll, a bride doll, was the bride, and then all the other little girls there had their dolls-- my doll was one of the bridesmaids. Now Mary Lotts made those dresses and they were rust colored, and the hat was, you tied it, it's tied down there, and the hat was rust and under it was sort of an olive green, under the hat. And something happened to that doll. Jinx said she's looked, and looked, and looked. I thought it was upstairs and something’s happened to it. That makes me sick. Chewning: So Mary Lotts made dresses, matching dresses for all the bridesmaids? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: For all those dolls, uh-huh. Chewning: And that was part of the Chrysanthemum Show? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh. And her daughter works up here at Mrs. Rowes and has for years, a cashier. And one night I went in there five or six years ago and she said-- and it was after her mother died. And she said, "Guess what I found?" She said, "I found a picture of that doll wedding, and I'm going to bring it and let you see it." And she did, she brought it and let me see it. And I saw my doll. Chewning: Oh, that's a shame it got lost. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, I know it. The way I love dolls, it is! Chewning: I wonder if anybody has any pictures of Mrs. Morris's church. Have you ever seen a picture of that? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, I haven't. I don't know of anybody that would have any of it. That would be good if they did. I can't think of anybody there in Brownsburg that would have been there long enough. People didn't take many pictures, you know, back then. I don't know of anybody who would have one. Chewning: Did you always have a phone? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: We always had a phone. I guess mainly because of Daddy's business, you know. Chewning: Oh, right. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: We had to have a phone. It was on the wall, and it was, you know, you'd do this [demonstrates cranking motion] and tell the operator two shorts and a long, or whatever it was. Chewning: So they would call, and then he would take the hearse and go get the body? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh, Uh-huh, yeah. Yeah, sure would, and bring them back. Chewning: Were there ready-made caskets? Did you have caskets in your house? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes, there were, and we got-- the caskets would come into the depot over at Fairfield and Daddy had a truck and we'd go over there and get the caskets from the depot over there. And he made a lot of long-lasting friends. The one fellow was a casket salesman and he ran the Richmond Woodworking Company. They made the caskets. And his wife and Mother became real good friends, and we stayed friends. In fact his daughter, who is my age, she and her husband were up here about six weeks ago and visited us. And we made lots of good friends through those people because then there were no motels and they'd stay at our house. They'd spend the night. See, the casket salesman would spend the night. They'd always make our stop last. Daddy always said it was because Mother was such a good cook. And then out there where you all live [Sterrett Road] that was a special place too, because that's where our school played baseball out there in the field. And man, we, I mean we'd get out of school we'd almost run the whole way to get out there before the game started, unless we could hook a ride with somebody. Sometimes we could hook a ride. Chewning: Was it the high school baseball team that was playing out there? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh, boys, um hmm, boys. I guess we probably weren't interested in the ball game. We were just interested in the boys! [Laugh] I imagine that's what it was. Chewning: Was John Layton a good baseball player? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, he played. Chewning: What's the most vivid memory of an event you have? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Of an event? Chewning: What sorts of things happened that stand out in your memory? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: You know, not anything really spectacular ever happened in Brownsburg, it really didn't. It was just kind of always a laid back place, and nothing-- I guess there was no dance places, and no, you now, nothing like that. I think the saddest event though, I don't know whether you'd call it an event, the saddest event was during the war whenever we'd see that government car come through we knew somebody had been killed because that's the way they came, and then everybody knew what it looked like. You could spot it a mile away, and as soon as you'd see it you thought, "Who's next?" you know. So, but I don't-- as far as events there's just not, not much big stuff that went on there really. Chewning: Your grandparents, did they have relatives who were in the Civil War or have memories of the Civil War? Did anyone ever talk about that? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: No, I don't think so. I don't think there were any that I can-- and I don't think even on my daddy's side I don't think there were. Chewning: Were you related to [Michael] Miley the photographer? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yes. That's what I was going to tell you. This Mr. Fishwick that did the book, and I hate that I don't have that book. Doug wanted to take it home with him. Our son lives in Roanoke, and he wanted to take it home with him because there were a lot of pictures of Daddy in there, and I have some that I'll show you before you go of Daddy that Uncle Mike did. But I'm not sure that any of them were-- but in that book, now, that might tell you something in there. Because see, Uncle Mike was Robert E. Lee's photographer, so it might be something in that-- I think the name of it is, "The Life and Works of Michael Miley." I'm not sure. It's been about 25, or maybe more years than that ago, Washington Lee had an honor, did something to honor him, and they had a reception and all, and we went. And they had all these slides on the screen of Daddy and some of the others that he had done. So it might be something in that book. But none in the Civil War I don't believe, that I can think of. Chewning: Tell me a little bit about what you remember about the black school and the white school. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: You know there wasn't any problem with that. I mean we all played together. We all played together. And like I said, we always went to their little graduation programs they had up there. And John Layton drove the school bus after they started going to Lylburn Downing up in Lexington. Chewning: Oh, he did? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: He drove the school bus, and I don't think there was any problem at all. Chewning: That's my recollection: that we all played together all summer, and then come fall, we just went to different schools, and that's just the way it was. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, that's the way it was, uh-huh. That's the way it was. I remember, like I told you earlier, you know, we all played over there on the bank together, and played with the Pleasants children down-- now up there on the turn where I was telling you where Will Gilmore's house is, you said the one that has the balcony [2613 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Will and Mary were the custodians up at Brownsburg for a while, but when I was a little girl growing up, Will and Mary had an ice cream store there. Chewning: Oh, in Brownsburg? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh, and my Granddaddy Dudley -- I had long curls, yellow curls. Mother would wrap them around her finger and pull them down like this [demonstrates], and they used to just tangle up, and tangle up, and tangle up. And when she'd try to brush them, I would cry. I would cry. And she'd say, “If you don't stop that crying I'm going to spank you with this hairbrush!” And I'm sure she didn't hurt me, but I wouldn't stop, because it was hurting and she’d take that brush on my leg and do like that [demonstrates]. Well, if my granddaddy happened to be anywhere near he'd just grab me up and he’d say, "Just come on and go with Granddaddy," and he'd take me up to Will and Mary's and get me ice cream. [Laugh] They had that ice cream store for a good long-- for a long while. Chewning: Did they make the ice cream? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I don't know. I asked John Layton one time if he remembered, and he said he didn't know either whether they did or not, but they probably did. Chewning: Was it in their house? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, it was down in that bottom part. Chewning: And then they lived upstairs? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh, uh-huh, in that bottom part. Chewning: Did you ever hear anyone talk about Virginia Gilmore, or did you know Virginia Gilmore? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, uh-huh. Chewning: Someone told me she had been a midwife too. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Now let's see now. I hadn't thought about her for a long time. I'm trying to think where she lived. Chewning: I think she might have lived out on Dry Hollow Road. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Yeah, I believe she did, uh-huh. Chewning: Was she related to those Gilmores who had the ice cream store? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I don't know. I don't know whether she was or not. I don't know. Hmm. I had forgotten all about her, but I remember now. I mean I can picture her in my mind. Chewning: What was the other midwife's name? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Aunt Mariah Fisher. She lived over there on the hill [Sterrett Road], as you go up the hill, she lived in a little house. I think that house has been torn down there now. She lived in one of those little houses on the left as you drove up. Another thing that happened in Brownsburg was kind of a-- it was scary, but it was, after it was all over then people-- in fact I saw him at his sister’s, the little Carwell boy. I saw him at Mildred's funeral and I was talking about it. Herb, you know, Herb Carwell? There was a culvert that ran down there in front of their house. It was this big, big rain came, and Herb must have, I believe Herb told me he was about two, or two and half. And they were out there playing in the water and Herb slipped and went through that culvert and came out on the other end. [Laugh] Chewning: Oh, gosh. Oh, my gosh. Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: We still tease him. I asked him the last time I saw him, I said, "Have you been going through any culverts lately?" It was so funny. [Laugh] Chewning: Oh, I know I had asked you about if you remembered when their house burned. Do you remember when they built the Sears house? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Chewning: Was that a big deal in Brownsburg? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: It wasn't as exciting then, I don't believe, as it is now, you know. Since then it's been in the-- I remember one time it was in the paper about that Sears house. In fact I was telling somebody the other day, they were asking me something about Carwell, and I said they're the ones who lived in the house that Sears Roebuck made. Chewning: Where did they live while they were rebuilding the house? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: They lived there on the corner where Jo Heath lives [2693 Brownsburg Turnpike]. And that's why I said Lou, and Jude, and the Carwell girls, all of us were right there together, you know. Chewning: How long did it take them to rebuild that house? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: Now that I don't remember. I don't remember. Chewning: Do you remember when they moved back in? Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum: I don't remember that. Now in the house where Lou lived [2651 Brownsburg Turnpike], there was a family of Wades [who lived there].