March 6, 2008 Interview with Mary Katherine Carwell Robertson By Isabelle Chewning [Part 2] Isabelle Chewning: Well, Mrs. Robertson, I think I’ve gotten through most of my questions. Anything else you can think of? Katherine Carwell I don’t know. Did they tear down both of the buildings up on the hill, at the school? Isabelle Chewning: The stucco is still there. And then the building that was the shop, it was the Agriculture building, that’s still there. Katherine Robertson: I remember one time we was up there. Us kids just walked up around there, you know. And way back, you know, they had these old pot-bellied stoves that they’d heat with, put coal in there. And they kept it down in the basement. That was just a coat building, I think. And they kept it down in the building – in the basement part of it. And it was this one pane of the window out. I would always just spook easy. [Laugh] It was ghosts. It was just one pane out of the window. And we just picked up this little gravel, and throwed it through that pane that was out, and that window just raised up. Isabelle Chewning: Oh, my goodness! Katherine Robertson: [Laugh] You know, my parents used to tell some of the awfulest tales, you know people who was killed around Brownsburg? Isabelle Chewning: Oh they did? Like what? Katherine Robertson: Well, way back, it’s sort of like that little old building in here [referring to Betty Carwell’s book]. They would tell me, said that – they named who the people were. That took an axe, and killed this boy in this little old building. I don’t know if that’s the little old building that’s in here or not. Isabelle Chewning: You’re talking about Mrs. Morris’ little --- Katherine Robertson: No, it’s another one somewhere down around there somewhere. They was telling me about the man took an axe and killed the boy. [A newspaper article in Betty Carwell’s material titled “A Shocking Tragedy on Walkers Creek” describes the axe murder of 11-year old Wilbur Cales by his aunt, Myrtle Dice who had been “adjudged insane.” The article is dated November 7, but there is no year.] My parents used to tell tales. [Laugh] That was something, though. That pane was out of that window, and we just throwed that little gravel through there, and that window just raised up. [Laugh] That’s not no lie, either. We said there was ghosts up there. Isabelle Chewning: Any other ghost stories in Brownsburg? Katherine Robertson: But you know, I tell people, we used to see the jack-o-lanterns come down that creek. It used to be an old be swamp up there. My parents said it was a horse and buggy that went down in that swamp. You know, the McLaughlins used that camp up there [Camp Briar Hills]. Isabelle Chewning: Right. Katherine Robertson: Used to be a big swamp way back up there. But we used to – I said it must have been gas coming from that swamp. At nights, you could see the lanterns just like, come down the creek. And then they’d go out. We called them jack-o-lanterns. I tell people that we could see them. They just run along. You could see it just run along that creek, the light. Like a lantern. But I don’t reckon – evidently it’s just gas coming from that swamp, I figured. Isabelle Chewning: Coming down Hays Creek? Katherine Robertson: It would come right along the big creek. It would come down the big creek, and then that little creek then that came from Mr. Dice’s down? It would come down that big creek to that -- where that little creek, and it’d go out. And that’s true. We would see it. Just like a lantern running along that big creek. And one night, after this other bridge over there, that little culvert that used to be there, you know where the Runkles and my parents lived [between Sleepy Hollow and the Sears House]. They built this other bridge over, a bigger bridge. One night, it just lit up there. It just lit up, then it was gone. [See attached article on Briar Hills for possible explanation of lanterns.] Isabelle Chewning: That’s really strange. Katherine Robertson: I know. It’s just like all at once, it just lit up, and that’s it. But that’s true. I mean we did use to see the jack-o-lanterns. And that’s the only thing I could figure, maybe gas coming from that old swamp. Of course, it’s dried up. Isabelle Chewning: Do you remember when the camp was up on the hill? Katherine Robertson: Um hmm. I remember Nell. Nell Brown, Cara Fan [the daughters of Margaret McLaughlin Hogshead, who started Camp Briar Hills as a summer recreational camp for her children and a few of their friends.] Mrs. McLaughlin, I remember. They’d come walking along the road, you know, to Brownsburg. Do they still own that, the McLaughlins? Isabelle Chewning: No. Katherine Robertson: Who owns it? Isabelle Chewning: A woman, her name is Lucy Rhame. There’s a log cabin up there now. Katherine Robertson: Oh, it is? Isabelle Chewning: Um hmm. Katherine Robertson: What do they do, use it just for a summer vacation? Isabelle Chewning: Um hmm. Right. Katherine Robertson: Lee Massie [McLaughlin]. Is he still – didn’t he die? Isabelle Chewning: Right, Um hmm. Katherine Robertson: Sam [McLaughlin] – I reckon, is he – Isabelle Chewning: He’s dead, but his son, Sandy, lives out in Pisgah now. Katherine Robertson: This Mrs. McLaughlin that lived over here, she was a good neighbor. [Material not related to Brownsburg was not transcribed.] Isabelle Chewning: And you think they were related to the Brownsburg McLaughlins? Katherine Robertson: Yeah, um hmm, they were related. [Material not related to Brownsburg was not transcribed.] The Williams boys [Dr. Williams’ sons] bought Mrs. McLaughlin’s place. Joe’s son? Isabelle Chewning: Um hmm. Katherine Robertson: And they’ve got them a shop over there. They mow for people and do stuff like that. Isabelle Chewning: Tree work and things, too, right? Katherine Robertson: Yeah, I think. Um hmm. Isabelle Chewning: Well, if there’s nothing else about Brownsburg you’d like to tell us, we sure appreciate your time. Katherine Robertson: I don’t know. I don’t know. Not many are left over there that, you know, I really know. Isabelle Chewning: Well I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. I wanted to make sure I got to talk to somebody from the Carwell family. Katherine Robertson: It was just always – it was a quiet little place, you know. And everybody just went on about their own business, you know. Ocie [Supinger] and Mattie [Wade] run the telephone company, and then the Wades run the bank. And Mrs. Bosworth standing up there and run the post office. All of that’s gone, you know. Everything’s gone, I’m telling you. They don’t – do they still deliver the mail in there? Isabelle Chewning: There’s a post office. They still have a post office, right. Katherine Robertson: I remember Irene Swisher, you know, always carried the mail. Isabelle Chewning: Oh, she did? Katherine Robertson: Yeah, Irene carried the mail to go over at Decatur or somewhere. Isabelle Chewning: Oh, did she! Katherine Robertson: Some way traveled over in there and backwards and forwards to carry the mail. Isabelle Chewning: He [Lewis Swisher] drove a school bus, I know. Katherine Robertson: Yeah, um hmm. I wonder what J. L. [Swisher] is doing. Isabelle Chewning: I see him in the post office. Katherine Robertson: Do you? I wondered what he done after his parents died. Isabelle Chewning: I see him in the post office. Um hmm. Katherine Robertson: I wonder what – is he “baching” by himself? Is that what he’s doing? Isabelle Chewning: I think so. Katherine Robertson: I asked Marjorie Ann [Whitesell Chittum] what he’s doing after his parents were gone. She said, “I don’t know.’ Isabelle Chewning: Well, I sure do appreciate it. Thank you so much for all your time. Katherine Robertson: Well, did you want to look at – Isabelle Chewning: I’d love to look through your book. [Begins to look through Betty Carwell’s materials.] Katherine Robertson: Hanging out over them banisters [shows pictures of Miss Pett Berry’s house, the remaining part of which is now used as the post office at 2741 Brownsburg Turnpike.] Isabelle Chewning: That was Miss Pett, and her last name was Berry? Katherine Robertson: I think it was Berry, Miss Pett Berry. She walked with a cane. Now [Ronnie] Green, he died, didn’t he. Isabelle Chewning: He did. Katherine Robertson: Is she [Letha Green] still living? Seems to me like she died. Isabelle Chewning: I think she died, too. Katherine Robertson: Now who’s living there [referring to a picture of 2693 Brownsburg Turnpike] Isabelle Chewning: Jo Swisher [Heath] lives there. What’s that? Katherine Robertson: I remember walking by them old houses going to school. It was the Withrow-Wade house. Isabelle Chewning: That’s where Jo Heath lives now. Katherine Robertson: Oh, that’s the back part of it. Cause I think slaves – I think it said slaves stayed in some of the back parts. Isabelle Chewning: That’s the Green’s house [referring to a photo of 2682 Brownsburg Turnpike] . Katherine Robertson: Yeah, the Wiseman’s lived there. Isabelle Chewning: Somebody’s working on that. Katherine Robertson: There’s where Carl Swope lived [referring to a photo of 2671 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Isabelle Chewning: And Mrs. Morris lived there, right? Katherine Robertson: Yeah, um hmm. Oh, that’s the back part of it. That’s where the Huffman’s station was [referring to a photo of 2712 Brownsburg Turnpike]. I saw their anniversary in the paper. If I’d have seen them out somewhere, I wouldn’t have known them. Cause I haven’t seen they was young, and they’ve aged. That’s the old shanty that [Harve] Matheny lived in. Daddy moved it out in Pisgah. That says here he “was a shoe maker 1930 to 40.” That’s the shanty he stayed in. And Mrs. Bosworth, that’s the house she lived in [referring to a photo of 2703 Brownsburg Turnpike]. They tore the porch off of it, didn’t they? That’s it. That’s the old home of Andrew Patterson. [Mrs. Robertson is referring to a photo of 2703 Brownsburg Turnpike from McClung’s book, The Historical Significance of Rockbridge County.] Isabelle Chewning: Oh, that’s what it looked like with the porch! Katherine Robertson: Mrs. Bosworth lived there, and she’d sit up there on the porch. Isabelle Chewning: This is just great, everything they’ve collected. Katherine Robertson: The Gilmore house, anybody still live there [referring to a photo of the Gilmore house at 2613 Brownsburg Turnpike]? Isabelle Chewning: Oh, no. Katherine Robertson: Says Clyde Runkle said he’d eaten up there many times. Isabelle Chewning: Gilmore. They were black people, right? Katherine Robertson: Right across from the Potters. Is that house still there? Isabelle Chewning: The house is there, but it’s almost falling down. Katherine Robertson: And then that’s the old Dudley house [referring to a photo of 2640 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Right there, it was on the side of John Layton’s [Whitesell’s]. That was John Layton’s grandparents. Is it still there? Isabelle Chewning: Oh it’s there. It’s real fancy now. Katherine Robertson: I thought they’d done a lot of work. Glasgow Craney’s house [referring to a photo of 2650 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Tootsie [Margaret Wade Harris] said she’d go up to see the Craney girl [Frances Craney Porterfield]. She died. Isabelle Chewning: Frances Porterfield. Katherine Robertson: Frances. Yeah. Used to be, along the creek was a woolen mill at one time. [Reading from the book:] “Mr. Tom Bosworth told Miss Mattie Wade that they used big thorns to hold the wool together.” Brownsburg wasn’t nothing, you know, to build it up. Isabelle Chewning: What’s that? Where’s that? Katherine Robertson: The Newcomer house. Isabelle Chewning: Oh, okay. That’s where Dick Barnes lives now [referring to a photo of 8 Hays Creek Road]. Katherine Robertson: See, the Englemans at one time run the store there. And then they moved to Stuarts Draft. They had a store up at Stuarts Draft. And then – I can’t think of his name right now – run that one. There’s where they stood on the corner [still referring to the photo of 8 Hays Creek Road]. And that was just an old blacksmith’s shop [referring to a photo of the building directly behind Old South Antiques.] Isabelle Chewning: Oh, right. That’s next to the garage, right? Katherine Robertson: Um hmm. Right there. [Reading and referring to a photo of the building that houses Old South Antiques:] “The Trotter-Whipple-Nye-Heffelfinger Store.” Isabelle Chewning: That was Mr. Supinger’s store, and Carl Swope’s [store]? Katherine Robertson: And there’s where they [Harve Matheny and Clint Troxell] stood on that corner right there. Isabelle Chewning: That’s the museum [referring to a photo of the building that will house the Brownsburg Museum]. Katherine Robertson: Well I, you know, I wondered where it was at. There’s where I seen that truck and thought somebody was living in there. Who lives in this house [referring to a photo of 2728 Brownsburg Turnpike.] Isabelle Chewning: Nobody right now. Mollie Sue’s [Whipple’s] grandson was living there, but he moved out. Katherine Robertson: And then the Potter’s [referring to a photo of 2610 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Mollie Sue and them lived in that one at one time [referring to a picture of 2685 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Isabelle Chewning: Oh, this says, “Dr. and Mrs. Walker lived in this house when they were killed.” Were they the ones in the [courthouse murders]? Katherine Robertson: Whipples owned that house. Well Mollie Sue lived in that house when she taught school. See, there’s part of that old house there that goes up to the school. [Unrelated material not transcribed] Isabelle Chewning: Then there’s Ag’s [Patterson] house [2744 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Katherine Robertson: Who lives there now? Isabelle Chewning: Well, Randall Wade lived there. Katherine Robertson: Oh, that’s right! Isabelle Chewning: Then a man named Richard Kauffman built a log house there [at 2752 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Katherine Robertson: Oh, is that right? [section of audio not transcribed] Isabelle Chewning: There’s Mrs. Whipple’s house [2728 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Katherine Robertson: I remember Miss [Margaret] McCormick that worked for them. You know, she’d go down at the barn and milk. I’d see her going all the time, backwards and forwards. There’s Mrs. Mollie Sue [Whipple, referring to photo taken at the October 26, 1980 [??] ceremony celebrating the designation of the village as an historic district]. And Jen Heffelfinger. Them others, I don’t know who they are. Brownsburg celebration. That’s Lib Ward’s place [referring to a photo of 2763 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Isabelle Chewning: You wouldn’t even recognize that now. They’ve ripped the front off of that, and it’s a log house now. They took off all the weather boarding. Katherine Robertson: Well, for heaven’s sake. Isabelle Chewning: It’s log. Katherine Robertson: Who lives there? Isabelle Chewning: They’re working on it right now. Katherine Robertson: Oh, they’re working on it. Mr. Bosworth’s [referring to a photo of 2690 Brownsburg Turnpike]. There’s nobody living there either? Isabelle Chewning: That one’s for sale. Katherine Robertson: That looks nice, the Patterson’s [referring to a photo of Janis Ayres current residence on Old School Lane]. Somebody told me one time, I don’t know if you ever heard it or not, said she was bootlegging. Isabelle Chewning: Who, Mrs. Huffman? Katherine Robertson: Yeah. I didn’t know if you ever heard that or not. Isabelle Chewning: No, I never heard that. Katherine Robertson: It was somebody who was kin to her told me. She said well, “I came from Ohio,” and some of her people came here. They used to live in Brownsburg, the Huffmans used to live in Brownsburg. Up where all the maples go. That house up there where the Huffmans used to live, Claire. Some of our kin people come here from Ohio sometimes and spend a couple of weeks, and they told her not to stay all the time – she lived in town. And they told her not to stay in there all the time, to go up there and stay some. She didn’t like to go up there, ‘cause she said them old men come in there and went out carrying their little brown bags. [Laugh] That’s what she said. Isabelle Chewning: What is that? Oh, that’s where the Drivers live [referring to a photo of 22 Hays Creek Road]. Katherine Robertson: Yeah, Mr. Dice. Walter Dice. The places, they look nice. That’s something – tore the porch off of that [referring to a photo of Sleepy Hollow at 2645 Sterrett Road]. Wonder who lives there. Isabelle Chewning: They’re real nice people. Their name is Reid. Katherine Robertson: That’s Mrs. Buchanan’s house, where Mrs. Buchanan lived [referring to a photo of 2623 Sterrett Road]. [section of audio not transcribed] I went up there to their anniversary not long ago. There’s the Wades, and the Dice house. I always thought he kept that nice. You know that house [referring to the Carwell Sears house, 2669 Sterrett Road] had a good basement, but if I could have remodeled the downstairs like I would have wanted it, it would have cost too much money. You know? Cause I’d have it all tore out. That’s the reason I said it’d pay you to build. But I’m telling you, it’s awful to build one. It’s awful. I wouldn’t start again. [Information on the audio not transcribed.] Oh, there’s Clint [Troxell, referring to a newspaper clipping from February 22, 1944]! [Laugh] There he is with his oranges. Isabelle Chewning: Giant lemons. Katherine Robertson: Yeah, with his lemons! [Laugh] They say he’d wear one old pair of overalls until they got so dirty and then he’d just throw them away and buy him another pair. [audio not transcribed]. I remember hearing of him, Billy Ward. That was Elizabeth Ward’s brother, I believe that’s the way it went. There’s Mrs. [Sally] Wade, she taught music. Probably you’d like to read some of this stuff. Isabelle Chewning: I’d love to see that sometime. Katherine Robertson: Here’s an article: “Brownsburg Man Is Fatally Shot by Sam Carter.” I though it was somebody that shot – I must have it wrong. See, up there at that house across from where the Potters was, that house you said was empty now on the turn [the William Gilmore house]. It was somebody they said shot this black man there one time. They never did find out. You know, way back in those days – Isabelle Chewning: People settled things that way? Katherine Robertson: It was rough. It was rough back in those days, I think it was kind of rough around Brownsburg. I think that’s the little old house they was talking about that somebody killed. This guy took an axe and killed a boy in, I think that’s it. Did you have anything you wanted to do, or was you in any hurry or anything? Isabelle Chewning: Oh, no, I’m not in any hurry. Katherine Robertson: That’s New Providence Church [referring to photo]. Isabelle Chewning: That’s before the Sunday School building. Katherine Robertson: I see Richard Beard once in a while. [information on audio not transcribed] There’s the old McClung mill, you know down back of Brownsburg [on Hays Creek Road]. I doubt if there’s nothing there now. Isabelle Chewning: No, it looks like this. Katherine Robertson: Oh, there is Miss Sally [Reid McClung]! I’ve heard that name. Is it a song or something about Miss Sally? Would be good, wouldn’t it, to make a song, “Miss Sally,” [Laugh] Her and Mrs. Dice and the horse and buggy. I think about back then. [Laugh] Sometimes I wished it was back then. The way it is now, I’m telling you! [Reading:] Miss Sally, she taught a Bible class in the office of the mill. Didn’t know that. That’s good, Wade’s Mill [referring to photo]. That’s out there at Daddy’s, where Daddy owned, out in Pisgah [referring to photo]. Part of that house was in good shape. Isabelle Chewning: Looks like it’s in good shape. Katherine Robertson: Herb always said he would have liked to have had that place. The guy who bought it started to build a house up on the hill, but he never did finish it. There’s where – it was out there, is a good spring water out there. Good spring, and had good watercress. I like watercress. But I don’t like to wash it. Isabelle Chewning: Oh, there’s the [Carwell] garage [behind Old South Antiques]. Katherine Robertson: Floyd always said he got the old garage. I don’t know if Daddy give it to him or what. And then Floyd’s son got it, and then he sold it to somebody. Somebody wanted to keep his car in there. That was Lois [Carwell, the sister who died in the fire]. She got burnt. That’s her, Lois. This is Lois and Virginia. Daddy and his turkey. Freddie. That’s Virginia’s boy. He built that little – he took popsicle sticks and built that little church or whatever it is. That’s Herb on his motorcycle. Herb would get ready to go, and his dog would hop on there with him. [Laugh] Here’s our bunch [referring to a family photo]. Isabelle Chewning: Which one is you? Katherine Robertson: This one, the ugly one! [Laugh] Isabelle Chewning: [Laugh] Katherine Robertson: That’s Mildred. She was the trouble-maker. Mildred was the trouble-maker. She just stirred up something all the time, most of the time. That’s Marjorie Ann [Whitesell Chittum]. [Laugh] That’s Herb. He had his white head. Me. That’s Ray, and that’s Helen, and that’s Virginia. There’s Mildred. Floyd. I don’t know, that don’t look like Frank to me, but it must be him. Isabelle Chewning: There’s somebody who’s cut out of the picture. Katherine Robertson: Yeah, I don’t know who that is. And then that was taken when Janet lived up there in that house at Rockbridge Baths and we was all up there, had a picnic. Another picture of us. Something about – I remember talking about Indian Bottom down there [referring to a copy of an item from McClung’s book, The Historical Significance of Rockbridge County]. Isabelle Chewning: My goodness, that was great! That was just great. [interruption in audio] Katherine Robertson: Yeah, Lauderdale. Isabelle Chewning: Mary Lauderdale? Katherine Robertson: Did you know her? Isabelle Chewning: No. Katherine Robertson: She was Preacher Lauderdale’s daughter. She taught at Brownsburg and – Isabelle Chewning: What did she teach? Katherine Robertson: English. I failed English and I quit. Isabelle Chewning: Was she a hard teacher? Katherine Robertson: I don’t know if she was really hard or not. She was a good person and all. I don’t know if she was that hard or not. [End of Side B] Mary Katherine Carwell Robertson Index A Automobiles · 23 B Beard, Richard · 49 Beckner, Wallace · 27 Berry, Hattie Clemmer · 13 Berry, Pett · 44 Bootlegging · 48 Bosworth, Mrs. Post Mistress · 43 Brownsburg Cannery · 32 Stores · 28 Brownsburg School Athletics · 18 Buchanan, Fanny · 17 Buchannan, Fanny · 13 C Camp Briar Hills · 42 Cannery · 14 Carter, Sam · 49 Carwell, Alice Clemmer · 1 Driving · 24 Polio · 40 Carwell, Floyd · 2 Carwell, Frank · 2, 23, 34 Carwell, Helen · 2 Carwell, Herb · 2, 33 Carwell, Janet · 2 Carwell, Lois · 2 Died in Fire · 5 Carwell, Mildred · 2, 21, 50 Carwell, Ray · 2, 33 Carwell, Roscoe "Pete" · 1 Carwell, Virginia · 2, 41 Carwell's Garage · 7 Christmas · 40 Craney, Glasgow · 46 Creamery, Staunton · 24 D Depression · 32 Dice, Mrs. · 38 Dice, Walter · 29, 48 Dunaway Family · 38 Dunaway, Rudolph · 38 E East, George Killed in WWII · 36 East, Mrs. Will · 36 Engleman, Hinsel · 28 Engleman’s Store · 28 F Fisher, Mariah Midwife · 26 G Gardening · 31 Green, Letha · 45 Green, Ronnie · 44 H Harris, Margaret Wade · 46 Heath, Jo Swisher · 45 Hogshead, Cara Fan · 42 Hogshead, Margaret McLaughlin · 42 Hogshead, Nell Brown · 42 Huffman's Store · 28 J Jones Family · 26 Jones, Bobby · 26 L Lotts, George · 11, 16 Lotts, Lena Carwell · 16 Lotts, Lizzie · 16 Lotts, Sam · 16 M Matheny, Harve · 28, 29, 45 McClung, Sally Reid · 38, 50 McCormick, Margaret · 47 McLaughlin, Lee Massie · 43 McLaughlin, Sam · 43 McLaughlin, Sandy · 43 Medicine Home Remedies · 39 Wart Removal · 30 Miller, Keith · 37 Miller, Milton · 33 Morris, Mamie · 45 N New Providence Presbyterian Church Bible School · 22 Bus service · 22 P Patterson, Andrew · 45 Patterson, Finley · 12 Patterson, Frank · 33 Patterson, Rosenell · 12 Patterson, Sam · 34 Polio · 40 Porter, Susan · 28 Porterfield, Frances Craney · 46 R Robertson, Mary Katherine Carwell Birth · 1 School · 16 Runkle Family · 12 Runkle, Clyde · 46 S Sears Roebuck House · 2 Slusser · 36 Slusser, Bruce · 37 Slusser, Harry · 37 Slusser, Hugh · 37 Smith, Annie · 14 Smith, Irene · 14 Smith, James · 14 Smith, Woodrow · 14 Snyder, John · 15 Snyder, Lee · 15 Snyder, Octavia "Tave" Berry · 14 Snyder, Virginia "Doots" Berry · 14 Strickler, Ollie · 33 Superstitions Ghosts · 41 Jack-O-Lanterns · 42 Re-building after fire · 5 Supinger, Ocie · 43 Supinger’s Store · 28 Swimming · 19 Swisher, Irene Mail Carrier · 44 Swisher, J.L. · 44 Swope, Carl · 45 T Telephone Service · 37 Trimmer, Ocie · 17 Troxell, Clint · 28, 31, 49 W Wade, Bessie · 24 Wade, Mattie · 43 Wade, Sally Music Teacher · 49 Ward, Billy · 49 Ward, Elizabeth "Lib" · 17, 49 Watson, Miss Home Ec Teacher · 17 Welfare Children · 13 Whipple, Mollie Sue · 17 Williams, Miss Teacher · 26 Wiseman, Tolerace · 22 Withrow-Wade House · 45