January 23, 2008 Interview with John Layton Whitesell By Richard G. Anderson [Items enclosed in brackets [ ] are inserted for clarification and are not on the audio] Richard Anderson: Today is January the 23rd, 2008 and we’re going to be doing an interview with Mr. John Layton Whitesell at his home at 2664 Brownsburg Turnpike in Brownsburg. My name is Richard Anderson, I will be asking the questions and Mr. Whitesell will be answering the questions. So we’ll start off, John, your date of birth was July 21st, 1923? John Whitesell: That’s correct. Richard Anderson: So let’s see that makes you 85 years old. John Whitesell: That’s about right. Richard Anderson: Well congratulations. Where were you born? John Whitesell: I was born 2 houses up [2640 Brownsburg Turnpike] from where I am right now [2664 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: Right here in Brownsburg? John Whitesell: Yes, right above. Richard Anderson: On the same side of the road? John Whitesell: Same side of the road. Richard Anderson: Is the house still there? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Which house would that be? John Whitesell: It’s the one beside of Glasgow Craney’s, the blue house [2650 Brownsburg Turnpike] and then the next one is the house I was born in [2640 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: Okay, was that a log building? John Whitesell: Partially I think, part log and part weatherboard. Richard Anderson: That house is it still standing? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: How long did you live there approximately? John Whitesell: Just a short while that was my grandfather. Richard Anderson: Grandfather’s home? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: What was his name? John Whitesell: Lucian Dudley. Richard Anderson: Lucian Dudley. Then after that where did you move, where did you live after that? John Whitesell: Mostly I lived right here [2664 Brownsburg Turnpike] all the time, but I grew up and went away and lived in Charlottesville for about a year. Richard Anderson: You lived right in this house where we are now? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: After you left the Dudley house? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: What are your parent’s names? John Whitesell: Miley L. Whitesell and Margaret [Dudley] Whitesell. Richard Anderson: And they lived in this house as well? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Did your grandparents live in Brownsburg for a long time? John Whitesell: They lived in the house where I was born up there, just two houses above mine. Richard Anderson: Did they live their all their lives pretty much? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: What did they do? John Whitesell: Grandfather was in the timber, he cut timber. Richard Anderson: And was that for the timber went elsewhere or was sold? John Whitesell: Yes, they just cut it and sold it. Richard Anderson: Sold it, okay. What’s your first memory of living in Brownsburg? That’s a tough question I know. John Whitesell: That’s a tough question, it was a small village in which still is that effect but it was a small village and there wasn’t much here, except for 4 or 5 stores and that’s about the size, they had a church and 4 or 5 stores and several houses, it was just kind of a little settlement. Richard Anderson: Small neighborhood? John Whitesell: Small neighborhood yes. Richard Anderson: Did you get to know everybody? John Whitesell: Oh yes, everybody knew everybody else and it was just like a big family. Richard Anderson: And who were some of your neighbors if you can recall names? John Whitesell: Oh well the Whipples and Mrs. Mary Morris lived across the street from me, she was a lady preacher and she preached at the church here in Brownsburg. Richard Anderson: That was a little church across the street here? John Whitesell: Across the street from me. Richard Anderson: Tell us about that church, whatever you know about it. John Whitesell: It was the Friends Lighthouse Mission church. It was kind of-- I don’t know what denomination it was, it was not one of the big denominations, I don’t think. I don’t know what you would call it, kind of like the Friends Lighthouse Mission is what they were. Richard Anderson: And what they called themselves? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: And this Mrs. Morris was in charge of it? John Whitesell: Yes, she was preacher of that church. Richard Anderson: Did she live here as well? John Whitesell: She lived in the house across the street from me [2671 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: Which is now where I live. John Whitesell: Where you live, yes. Richard Anderson: Was that church in operation for a long time? John Whitesell: It had been here for quite a while and then it lasted a little while after that. Richard Anderson: So it just closed down? John Whitesell: Well it stayed open for a while but then it just closed down. Richard Anderson: When did it stop operating, approximately? John Whitesell: Oh. Richard Anderson: Was it still here after World War II? John Whitesell: Yes, yes for a while but it was just a little church, didn’t have a very large congregation. Richard Anderson: And what happened to the building? John Whitesell: The building was sold and they tore it down and moved it to Staunton and built it back to a church in Staunton. Richard Anderson: So it went into another church? John Whitesell: Yes, the church in Staunton burned I think and they took this one down and moved it down there. Richard Anderson: What other neighbors were there that you can mention? John Whitesell: The Wades and Laura Pleasants and Glasgow Craney and just the houses that were next to mine and just along the street here. Richard Anderson: Did most of those people stay in the community or did they move away? John Whitesell: Well at times one of them would move away, and then another one would move in and it changed a little for quite a bit, they didn’t stay too long. Wasn’t much work here for them in Brownsburg, there wasn’t much for them to do, they had to work away from here mostly. A lot of them were farmers who worked around here and then the others they had to get jobs off somewhere else. Richard Anderson: Did you have other relatives besides your grandfather who lived in Brownsburg when you were growing up? John Whitesell: Yes, I had a couple of aunts and uncles that lived in this area, maybe not right in Brownsburg but they lived within a few miles of Brownsburg. Richard Anderson: Do you recall any of their names? John Whitesell: My grandfather was Dudley, and then I had Raymond Miller and his wife and they lived in this area. And my aunts and uncles lived over in Decatur which is 5 miles from here, so they were reasonably close too. Richard Anderson: So you went to the Brownsburg school I assume? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: You started in the first grade? John Whitesell: First grade yes, went from the first grade and graduated. Richard Anderson: What year would that have been, first grade? John Whitesell: Well I would have been 1930, somewhere along there. Richard Anderson: You went all the way to the end of the high school? John Whitesell: Yes, I graduated from high school. Richard Anderson: Was the old academy building still there when you started? John Whitesell: Yes it was. Richard Anderson: Did you attend classes in that building? John Whitesell: Yes I did. Richard Anderson: What recollections do you have about that building? John Whitesell: Well it was very old and, well, it was modern for its time but it wasn’t what you’d call modern now, it would have been old type school then. Richard Anderson: That was torn down at some point while you were attending school there? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Do you know about when that was? John Whitesell: ’38, seems to me like it was ’38 something like that. Richard Anderson: So up until that point you were still using that building and going to classes in that building? John Whitesell: Yes but they had, there was two buildings, one side by side. Richard Anderson: What was the reason for tearing it down? John Whitesell: Well they consolidated the schools and they were torn down, the schools went together and made a larger one and just closed the one in Brownsburg. Richard Anderson: Do you remember the names of any of your teachers? John Whitesell: Oh yes I had Miss Wade. Richard Anderson: Which Miss Wade was that? John Whitesell: Well she was from Staunton, Pauline Wade. Richard Anderson: Pauline Wade. What grade did she teach? John Whitesell: She taught the 5th grade I believe. Richard Anderson: And anybody else, other teachers? John Whitesell: Oh yes, Mrs. Rosenell Patterson and Miss [Osie] Trimmer was the principal of school. Richard Anderson: Did she also teach? John Whitesell: Yes, she taught, too, and she remained here for quite a while. Richard Anderson: How big were the classes, how many students were in the classes? John Whitesell: Oh anywhere from 20 to 30. Richard Anderson: And where did those students come from? John Whitesell: Oh all right around the country here, they were bused in, they had several school busses. They bussed them from Rockbridge Baths and all around the countryside here, just bussed them and brought them in here. Richard Anderson: How many students from right in the Brownsburg area were in the school? John Whitesell: How many were in that school? Richard Anderson: Yes, approximately. John Whitesell: Approximately 300 or so I imagine. Richard Anderson: How many actually lived right here in Brownsburg do you think? John Whitesell: Oh it was very few of them who lived in Brownsburg, they were bused in, we had about five or six buses that bused them in here. Richard Anderson: Did you walk up to the school? John Whitesell: Yes, I was right close, I walked there. Richard Anderson: That was true of mostly the children in Brownsburg, they would walk to school? John Whitesell: Right, the school was where it is now, it was about the same. Richard Anderson: Do you want to tell us about any of your experiences at the school, good or bad? John Whitesell: I was like most boys I guess, I had several of each, good days and bad days. Richard Anderson: Did they play sports up there? John Whitesell: We played sports. We had baseball and basketball and we had an outdoor basketball court, played basketball out on the grounds. I know when it’s bad enough when there was a floor in there, but we slide on the floor, but now you slide on the gravel. When they had a basketball game or you fell down or you had a little sand or gravel skins on your legs because you’d go to the ground. Richard Anderson: Scrape your knees, huh? John Whitesell: Yes, it was a little rough and it was quite a while before they had any indoor courts, we didn’t have any indoor courts for quite a while. Richard Anderson: There weren’t 12 grades were there, there were just 11 grades? John Whitesell: No they put another grade in after that. Richard Anderson: So if you started in about 1930, you went to the 7th grade and then 4 years of high school. John Whitesell: Yes. There wasn’t any 8th grade. Richard Anderson: You didn’t have an 8th grade. So you would have graduated in about 1941? John Whitesell: That was I think right, what it was I believe. Richard Anderson: And had World War II started by that time when you’d graduated? John Whitesell: Yes, I had graduated then. Richard Anderson: You’d already graduated? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: War started in 1942 I guess it was, well no maybe it was earlier than that. At any rate after you graduated from high school then what did you do? John Whitesell: I went to Dunsmore Business College in Staunton. Richard Anderson: You went directly from high school to that school the next year? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: How long did you attend that school? John Whitesell: About I guess 8 months, something like that. Richard Anderson: And then what did you do? John Whitesell: Then I just came out and went to work. Richard Anderson: Here in Brownsburg? John Whitesell: Yes, my father was in the undertaking business here. Richard Anderson: Tell us about that business a little bit, when did he start that? John Whitesell: Well he was in that when I was born, I was born into that. Richard Anderson: Was that operated where the store was? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: After you got out of the business school you came back to help him with that business? John Whitesell: Yes I did and then my father died. Richard Anderson: When did he die? John Whitesell: Died in the 1940s I believe. Richard Anderson: Early ‘40s? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: And then what happened to the business? John Whitesell: Well it closed up for a while. Richard Anderson: And then did you continue to operate it? John Whitesell: Yes. Well I was pretty young to operate a business then so it was later on I opened up the store and had a business there and my mother tried to run the-- she ran the funeral home. Daddy had a funeral home here and we ran that for a while after he passed away and the family had to give it up. Richard Anderson: And by that time you had opened the grocery store? John Whitesell: Well later on I got into the grocery store and then I ran the grocery store for a while and I closed it. Then later years along after that I opened it up again and there were 5 stores here and that was too many stores for the size of the town. Some of them closed, and then later on I went back in it again, groceries again and I ran it that time for a few years and then I got the Post Office and put the Post Office in with it. Richard Anderson: At some point the Post Office was relocated to the store? John Whitesell: Yes I moved it from down -- Richard Anderson: Where had it been before that? John Whitesell: It had been down in Bosworth’s Store [2707 Brownsburg Turnpike] across from the [Huffman] service station [2712 Brownsburg Turnpike], beside the bank [2711 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: Was that the time when you actually became Postmaster yourself? John Whitesell: No, I became Postmaster in oh 1946, maybe or somewhere along there, I can’t remember exactly the year it was. Richard Anderson: After the end of the war? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: So then at that point you were the Postmaster and operating the store? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: The store was open? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Post Office was in the store? John Whitesell: Yes that’s true. Richard Anderson: And you continued that for quite a while didn’t you? John Whitesell: Yes for several years. Richard Anderson: How long were you Postmaster? John Whitesell: I was Postmaster for 30 years. Richard Anderson: So you went from about ’46 on up? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Until 1976? John Whitesell: Yeah ’76, I think I closed the store again in ’81 I believe it was. Richard Anderson: Why did you close it at that time, just to take a break? John Whitesell: Yes it was just too slow. Richard Anderson: You didn’t go into the armed services during World War II? John Whitesell: No I was 4F. Richard Anderson: Do you have brothers and sisters? John Whitesell: I had one sister. Richard Anderson: One sister, what’s her name? John Whitesell: Marjorie Chittum now, she married Earl Chittum. Richard Anderson: And did she stay here and help with the store or anything of that nature? John Whitesell: No, well she helped some but she didn’t stay here long. Richard Anderson: When did you get married? John Whitesell: Got married [March 9] 1943. Richard Anderson: How did that come about, how did you meet Virginia? John Whitesell: Well she’d lived close to here. Richard Anderson: Where did she live? John Whitesell: She lived between here and Rockbridge Baths. Richard Anderson: And did she go to the Brownsburg school? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Is that how you met her? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: You knew her from the school? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Did you have a long courtship? John Whitesell: Well yes quite long, I started the courtship, I wasn’t at the marrying age I don’t guess. I courted ‘til I got to the marrying age, and then it went into that. Richard Anderson: What other social activities, if any, went on? Were there dances and things? John Whitesell: Oh yes, we had dances and parties and little things like that. Richard Anderson: Where were they held? John Whitesell: They were within the village here, mostly around with a few miles outside of the village. Richard Anderson: Did they have dances at the school? John Whitesell: Had some yes, had some. Richard Anderson: How about the churches, did they have activities at the churches? John Whitesell: Yes, most of the people around here went to New Providence [Presbyterian] Church and then the church that was here in Brownsburg had a few members. They didn’t have lots of members, but they just had a few members. Richard Anderson: Did you go to New Providence at an early age? John Whitesell: I went to New Providence, still belong to New Providence. Richard Anderson: Did you start going there as a child? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: How big was the church at that time? John Whitesell: I expect it had a hundred members maybe or so, hundred and some members. Richard Anderson: Do you remember any of the ministers out at New Providence? John Whitesell: Mr. Hanna was out there and Walthall and they had several different ones in my time growing up. Richard Anderson: Were there a lot of young people, children? John Whitesell: Yes a good many. We had several busses that bussed them in here, they bussed the school children in here from Rockbridge Baths. Richard Anderson: To go to church [inaudible] or church activities? John Whitesell: Yes, but not as much as to school, they bussed them to school because the school was here and they had Rockbridge Baths and all of them came here. Of course Fairfield had their school but we had Rockbridge Baths and all the country round here, the children came in here. Richard Anderson: Did you have any special experiences at the church that you’d like to tell us about or interesting experiences? John Whitesell: Well I liked Sunday School very well, we had a good Sunday School class and had good teachers. Richard Anderson: Who were some of the teachers? John Whitesell: Well Mr. Houston was one of the teachers and we had several good teachers, they just don’t come to my mind now. Richard Anderson: So you had a good time going to Sunday School, you had a good experience? John Whitesell: Yes I did. We had good Sunday School classes and good teachers and it was a right good time for me. Richard Anderson: How did you get to and from the church? John Whitesell: In the car. Richard Anderson: When did the family first get a car? John Whitesell: Oh we had a car all the time, my Daddy was in the -- like I say, he was in the funeral business and we had cars. Richard Anderson: So you didn’t have to ride a horse to church or anything like that? John Whitesell: No, I wasn’t a horseback rider. Richard Anderson: What was it like to grow up in Brownsburg and live in Brownsburg when you were growing up, what do you remember most about living in the Brownsburg area? John Whitesell: Well it was just a village, it wasn’t a large place and it was just a village and you knew everybody and everybody knew you. And it was just like friends, just a group of friends, it just seemed like the whole village was-- at times well maybe they weren’t all friends at one time, you’d have a little pow wow between them now and then, but mostly it was just a nice little village that people knew each other and just looked after each other. If someone was sick, well everybody knew who was sick and how they were getting along, and it was just a small village that people associated with each other. Richard Anderson: How about the black community, what was your experience with the members of the black community? John Whitesell: Yes, we had quite a few blacks in the Brownsburg area lived in the area here and normally they got along very well, we got along very well with them. Richard Anderson: And they had their own school didn’t they? John Whitesell: They had their own school yes, it was right here in Brownsburg. Richard Anderson: Where was that school? John Whitesell: It was right down where the-- they made a cannery there when the war came along or something, they had a cannery. The made the cannery in the school. Richard Anderson: Where was that located? John Whitesell: Down right across-- just after you cross the bridge coming into Brownsburg on the right. Richard Anderson: About where Janis Ayres lives [Old School Lane]? John Whitesell: Yes just close to her. Richard Anderson: There’s a little street marker down there that says “Schoolhouse Lane” or something, would that be it? John Whitesell: That’s probably it. Richard Anderson: Right there along the creek. John Whitesell: Right, it was right there after you crossed the bridge coming into Brownsburg, why it was the first building on your right; I think it’s torn down now. Richard Anderson: It’s no longer there. You said it was operated as a cannery, what happened to the children who were going to school? John Whitesell: Oh well they moved them to another school. Richard Anderson: They moved the black children to another school? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Who operated the cannery? John Whitesell: I don’t know who really operated it, it was operated some way through the school some way, I don’t know who owned that, who operated that. Richard Anderson: Were there a lot of people working there? John Whitesell: No, they had the ones that ran it, who were just a few and then the people from the-- I guess the school was connected with that some way. And the people from the community went in and canned stuff but you’d buy your cans and they canned them. Richard Anderson: So local people could go in there. John Whitesell: Local people could go in and can their stuff. Richard Anderson: Can their own stuff. John Whitesell: Yes, you had a number, and you were number so and so, canned so many cans of so and so and that. Richard Anderson: Was that operated by Mr. [Lynn] Woody? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Lynn Woody? John Whitesell: Yes, he had the overseeing of it, I think. Richard Anderson: Did you all go back and forth from Brownsburg to Lexington or Staunton, did the family have occasions to go back and forth? John Whitesell: Oh yes that’s where we did most of our-- you did most of your big shopping in towns like Lexington or Staunton. Richard Anderson: How often would you go to Lexington or Staunton? John Whitesell: I expect it averaged maybe once a week. Richard Anderson: Did you all use the train that ran over through Raphine and Fairfield? John Whitesell: I never used the train. I mean I guess we had some stuff shipped in by train that you’d pick it up at the depot, but normally you didn’t have a lot of that, it was just a little of it. Richard Anderson: And since your family had the automobiles you would use that means of transportation to get to Lexington or Staunton? John Whitesell: Right, right, there were no busses, we didn’t have a bus, there wasn’t a bus right through here and you had to have a car or get a taxi or something to get to town. Richard Anderson: Did most people have cars? John Whitesell: Yes, I think most of the people did have cars. Of course there were a few that didn’t own cars but there was mostly everyone had cars. Richard Anderson: How did you and your family keep up with what was going on in the world? John Whitesell: Well, we had the radio, and we had the newspapers, and kind of kept up with them in that way and by visitation. People came into the store and they’d have stories for you and you’d have to tell them one. Richard Anderson: So there was a lot of swapping of stories? John Whitesell: A lot of swapping stories, yeah. Richard Anderson: So the grocery store was to a certain extent a neighborhood meeting place? John Whitesell: Right, right. Richard Anderson: People would come in here and stay for a while wouldn’t they? John Whitesell: Saturday night was the big day in town. Richard Anderson: So you stayed open Saturday night? John Whitesell: Yes, we’d stay open ‘til 9 o’clock maybe. Richard Anderson: The people would come out at that time? John Whitesell: Yes, come in and talk, tell the stories of what happened that week and they’d exchange stories at the store. Richard Anderson: So it was sort of like a community meeting place? John Whitesell: Right, that’s what it amounted to. Richard Anderson: So you listened to the radio and you got newspapers, what newspapers did you receive? John Whitesell: Staunton paper and the Lexington Gazette and the Lexington/Rockbridge County News. Richard Anderson: So you had all three of those? John Whitesell: I took the Roanoke Times paper for years and so you could have pretty good representation in the news area. Richard Anderson: Let’s see you were born in 1923. Do you have any recollection what life was like during the depression years, utilizing as the period from 1930 to 1940, before World War II? John Whitesell: Yes, it was a little rough going on some folks, it was a bad time. Richard Anderson: How about your family in particular, did you have any? John Whitesell: Well we didn’t have too much of a-- the funeral business, my father was an undertaker and he had-- people are going to die, you know. Richard Anderson: That continued regardless? John Whitesell: Yes, that continues and but it wasn’t a thriving great big business, it kept you moderate living but it wasn’t a great big thing. Richard Anderson: So you didn’t have any special problems with living during the depression years? John Whitesell: No just like things got a little tighter than they were when it was free spending and everything, people they tightened up a little bit, they had to tighten their belts. Richard Anderson: Do you have any special remembrances about life in Brownsburg during the World War II period? John Whitesell: Well they took a lot of young people, we didn’t have a lot of young people really, but they took-- a lot of boys went to the service and boys and girls and so forth. You noticed it, you saw a difference. Richard Anderson: How was the effect of rationing and that kind of thing? John Whitesell: Well I don’t think it affected people too much. The people did a lot of raising their own foods around here, everybody had gardens and they had hogs they butchered for meat and they survived pretty well, it didn’t bother them too much. Richard Anderson: Were you selling gasoline during that period of time? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: And you had to observe the requirements I guess of the rationing of the gasoline? John Whitesell: Yes, you had to ration the gasoline, you had the cards, stickers they put on your car, you had an A sticker or a B sticker; one allowed you so many gallons a week and you had to get these stamps, you had to give stamps for your gas, you had to have money and stamps too. But you had gallon stamps and 2 gallon stamps and 5 gallon stamps, you could get 5 gallons or 2 gallon or whatever you wanted to get, it was rationed, that’s all that you got. If you didn’t have a lot of traveling to do, well you weren’t rationed very much gas, if you had an A sticker and a B. John Whitesell: A traveling person, if that was your business, why of course you got a-- I believe it was an X stamp or something they gave you, that you could get the most gas you needed if you were a traveling person. But it got scarce, there were times when it would be scarce. Richard Anderson: Did you always have electricity while you were growing up? John Whitesell: I was growing up in the time when we got electricity here, I don’t think we had it until a certain time, but it was the early part of my life, I didn’t pay too much attention it right then, I was too young to be affected too much by it. Richard Anderson: So you really didn’t have any experience with or much experience that you can recall about electricity? John Whitesell: No, I guess when I got to school, when I got to school age they had electricity and you could study without a lamp. But the people used to have to study by lamps, and I wonder now when we got the electricity and the lights are so bright. I wonder how in the world you could see to study when you had to study by lamp. Richard Anderson: So the schools certainly had electricity when you went to school, when you started school? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: How about telephones, everybody have telephones? John Whitesell: Yes, we had a telephone operator, switchboard here in the community, right in Brownsburg and still do, there’s a switchboard here. Richard Anderson: Where was that switchboard office? John Whitesell: I believe it was in the-- I can’t recall, they had a switchboard office, it seemed to me like it was above the bank [2711 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: The bank was here too at that point and the telephone office then was on the second floor; that’s what I’ve heard from others. John Whitesell: Yes, that’s true. Richard Anderson: How about the paving of the roads were the roads all paved? John Whitesell: No. Richard Anderson: Tell us what you recall about the roads? John Whitesell: Well about one time the roads and I don’t remember a whole lot about this because that was in my younger days and I wasn’t paying that much attention to the roads, I wasn’t driving then. But they used to get some pretty deep ruts in the roads, the dirt roads right-- there was a dirt road right through Brownsburg here. That was all we had. Richard Anderson: Right where the present road is? John Whitesell: The present road, it was dirt and there were some places that got pretty deep when the traffic would get pretty heavy and they’d dig ruts in it and they’d get pretty muddy. Richard Anderson: Can you recall when they paved the road? John Whitesell: Yes I can remember when they started paving it, I’m sure that’s all I would remember about it, it was a welcome sight, it certainly was a big excitement when we got the paved road through here. Richard Anderson: Was that before World War II? John Whitesell: Yes Richard Anderson: How far out of town did they go? John Whitesell: Well it just went through the town, up straight through the middle of it and right after you got out of the city limits like. Richard Anderson: It went back to dirt road? John Whitesell: Yes, back to a dirt road. Richard Anderson: So to get to the church [New Providence Presbyterian Church] it [Route 252, Brownsburg Turnpike] was a dirt road out that way? John Whitesell: Yes from there to the bridge where you crossed the [Hays] creek down here, where you begin a dirt road there and it was a dirt road all the way to church. Richard Anderson: And how about Sterrett Road, was that a dirt road? John Whitesell: That was dirt too, yes. Richard Anderson: And then south of town, [the paved road] didn’t go very far south of town? John Whitesell: No, just went right to where the Brownsburg limit is and the [paved] road stopped there. Richard Anderson: And so when did the road [Brownsburg Turnpike] from Hays Creek Bridge to the [New Providence Presbyterian] church get paved the first time, after World War II? John Whitesell: Yes. No, I think partially it was paved before World War II but right along in there, paving was beginning to pick up then. Richard Anderson: So you had to pick your days for traveling didn’t you? John Whitesell: Well it was right rough through here when they get-- before we got the paved done, I don’t remember a lot about this, but there used to be said when you got coming through Brownsburg here that a lot of times that the mud was axle deep in the main street through Brownsburg here, just where the cars would sink down in it. Richard Anderson: How did the school busses get through all of that? John Whitesell: I don’t remember that. Richard Anderson: Did any school busses get stuck in the mud? John Whitesell: Oh I imagine, I feel sure they did, all of them had chains, they had to put chains on. Richard Anderson: How about your father’s undertaking business, was that affected by that? John Whitesell: Yes, that was affected too, that was bad time. If you had to go, that was a bad time to go when it was raining and muddy because it wasn’t a good time for a funeral. Richard Anderson: Well what changes good or bad have you seen take place in the Brownsburg area during the time you’ve lived here? John Whitesell: Oh gee there’s so many of those, why you could take all day to tell you them. Richard Anderson: Well just give us what your impressions are. John Whitesell: Everything is really improved so that it’s just hard to come up with, like we’re talking your road business was better and everything got better and it was easy to see how much better it was. We wondered sometimes how we made it through the rough time but actually it didn’t seem that rough to us then, it wasn’t too bad. Richard Anderson: So your general feeling is that conditions have improved over the years? John Whitesell: Oh yes. Richard Anderson: There have not been any adverse developments? John Whitesell: No, not really, everybody finds a little bit of something to gripe about sometimes but a lot of times they didn’t need it because I think everything has improved pretty well. Richard Anderson: Going back a little bit again, tell us about what businesses existed in the Brownsburg area when you were growing up, just give us a description. John Whitesell: Well you had the school was the main thing here. We had a very good school and they bussed I don’t know how many, I’d say five or six busses, they bussed the children in here, we had I expect three or four hundred [300 or 400] in school and they hauled them in here from Rockbridge Baths and all of the surrounding community. And had a school here, and had one at Fairfield, and they were like that far apart, and you had to bus the children to them. Richard Anderson: What I was specifically referring to was the types of commercial businesses. John Whitesell: Oh well there was about five stores, at one time there were five stores in Brownsburg and that’s just been on and off. The chain stores and everything, just eliminated those businesses. Richard Anderson: Were they all the same type of stores? John Whitesell: Yes, grocery stores and some of them were general merchandise stores and you had groceries and clothing and everything together in a store which was a general merchandise store. Richard Anderson: So where were those located and if you know the names of any of them? John Whitesell: Well they were about, they had the Supinger store [Old South Antiques] and the Huffman Store [2712 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: The Supinger store, is that building still there? John Whitesell: That’s where the barber shop used to be, down Bud Wade’s barbershop was down there. That was the last building down, that was Supinger’s and then the one on the corner was the farm store. Richard Anderson: Like a Co-op? John Whitesell: Co-op and that had feed and seed and all that. Richard Anderson: Was that where Dick Barnes’ house, where he lives [8 Hays Creek Road]? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: And the Co-op store was it in the -- John Whitesell: One on the other corner over there, and the Huffman store was over at the service station that was a store and service station together [2712 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: Any other stores besides those ones? John Whitesell: And I had one for a year, my Daddy had one first and then later his closed and then lots of years later I opened up one and had a store for a few years. Richard Anderson: Were there any other businesses in town? John Whitesell: Well you had the doctor’s office and you had the [bank and telephone offices]. Richard Anderson: Where was that? John Whitesell: That was down where Ag Patterson lives now [2744 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: When did that start, an approximate date? John Whitesell: Oh we always had a doctor here. Richard Anderson: Always had a doctor? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: What were the doctors’ names? John Whitesell: Oh there was several of them, Dr. Green and Dr. Bailey and Dr. [Joe] Williams. Richard Anderson: And they all lived in the same place? John Whitesell: No they doctored out of the same place mostly but finally the doctor’s office moved up to where the farm store was, the house above the farm store there [8 Hays Creek Road]. And I don’t know, they had the Huffman store was there over where the service station was. We had, like I said, there was five stores, a garage and doctor’s office and my father’s funeral business and all those businesses we had-- it was just a regular little village. Richard Anderson: And you had the bank. John Whitesell: Bank, yes, the bank and the Post Office. Richard Anderson: And the telephone company. John Whitesell: Telephone company and you had like I said it was four or five grocery stores. Richard Anderson: Did the grocery stores-- other than yours, when did they close out, different times I’m sure, but -- John Whitesell: Yes, they got fewer and fewer as you got more super stores, you know. They started opening up these super stores in town and people who had cars could get to town and that did away with the little village store man. Richard Anderson: Were there stores still operating after World War II? John Whitesell: Yes, there were still some of them, there weren’t as many but some of them were. Richard Anderson: So it was just as the supermarkets got more prevalent and the automobiles became more available. John Whitesell: It got easier to get to town and get your groceries. Well that did away with the country store man because it was hard for the country store man to get shipments and stuff to-- get his stuff delivered to him in time to, you know, satisfy the people. It just did away with the store business. It just got to the point that you could hardly run a grocery store unless it was one right out in the middle of the country and I put a grocery store out there and it would pick up business that way. Richard Anderson: Did you work for any other businesses other than your father’s funeral home and your own grocery store, of course? Did you work in any of these other businesses at any time? John Whitesell: No, I had a school bus, I drove a school bus for a while. Richard Anderson: And you worked for Trailways for a time? John Whitesell: Yes, and then later I got on this Trailways, drove for Trailways, the bus company. Richard Anderson: How long did you do that? John Whitesell: Seven years. Richard Anderson: Where did you travel, where did you start and where did finish? John Whitesell: I drove from Staunton to Richmond and Staunton to Washington and that’s about the size of it. Richard Anderson: When was that? John Whitesell: Oh I can’t think of the years. [It was in the mid-40’s.] Richard Anderson: Did you close the store when you were doing it? John Whitesell: Oh yes. Virginia, I think my wife ran the store a little bit when I was doing that, but not very long. Richard Anderson: So was that during World War II when you were doing Trailways? John Whitesell: Well it was during that time, along with that time. Richard Anderson: Well these are all fairly general questions but if you’d like to tell us about any of them that’s what we’re anxious for you to do. What stands out in your memory as the most significant or important event or events that occurred in Brownsburg during the time you have lived in the area? That’s a tough question. But any particular events that you recall as you’d like to mention, things that either you were involved in yourself or are aware of? John Whitesell: Well we had the schools and operating the schools, they used to have plays and they had basketball games and baseball games. That was the most exciting things that we had happening around here. Every once in a while, two guys would have a little argument over something and they’d have a little fisticuffs. That went on every Saturday night or so, somebody would get, maybe they would get a little joy juice and make them want to fight. They would want to have a little scrap or two and those kind of things. It wasn’t completely peaceful all the time, but it was very good, we didn’t have a lot of trouble. Richard Anderson: Now you were involved with Ruritan Club weren’t you? John Whitesell: Belonged to the Ruritan Club for, I don’t know, I think it’s 40 years. Richard Anderson: Were you one of the original members? John Whitesell: Pretty close. You know, I don’t know whether I’m an original but it’s pretty close. Richard Anderson: You were also involved with the horse show for a number of years? John Whitesell: Oh yes, if you were a Ruritan, you were involved with the horse show. Richard Anderson: And where was that held? John Whitesell: We held it at different places. We held it over Maxwelton Camp some years, and we held it at the school one time. Richard Anderson: Up here at the Brownsburg school? John Whitesell: Yes and we just had it at different places and finally got to Bustleburg, I think we had it up there. Richard Anderson: Where did they meet, where did the club meet? John Whitesell: They met at the church, the Men’s Fellowship Hall. We had our dinners out there and different places, the schools would take you for a meal. The club would have a meal at a certain place and everybody went there. Richard Anderson: Did they actually meet at the Brownsburg school? John Whitesell: Yes they did. I think they finally quit that, but they did. Richard Anderson: Were you involved in any other organizations like that? John Whitesell: I don’t believe so. Of course you had the church, and the Sunday School, and all of those things and then you had-- by the time you got all of that worked in, your week was pretty well taken up. Richard Anderson: You seemed pretty busy, keeping up with the church and the Sunday School and school and things like that. Did you go into town for any events? To Lexington to attend anything? John Whitesell: Oh yes there was things that would go on up there, maybe the school would be having something or somebody would be having something in town and it would draw your attention, draw your crowds to there. Richard Anderson: Now you were involved in a gospel singing group, too, weren’t you? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: When did that start? John Whitesell: Well that started when we organized a gospel singing group and of course I was in it. Several others were in it, and we put on programs in different schools and different places, and we’d get calls or people would book us to have it at their school or at something like that. Richard Anderson: And you did that for quite a few years didn’t you? John Whitesell: Yes, for several years. Richard Anderson: And what instruments were you involved with? John Whitesell: I played the guitar and I played the bass, played the electric bass. Richard Anderson: How big a group was this, how many people were in it? John Whitesell: How big a group? Richard Anderson: How many people? John Whitesell: Around five. Richard Anderson: And you traveled around to different places? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Did you go out of the state? John Whitesell: We have been out of state yes, several times. We went to North Carolina some, you know, one gospel group would perform in another gospel group’s area. They’d trade backwards and forwards and they’d take our gospel group and then we’d take their gospel group and bring them to our place. Richard Anderson: So you had sort of joint concerts? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: With a number of groups, at least two or three groups anyway? John Whitesell: Yes, if you got too many it took too long, it lasted too long. Richard Anderson: When did you start doing that, how did you learn to play the guitar? John Whitesell: Just by ear, I didn’t take music, I just took it by ear, just learned it. Richard Anderson: Is this something you started playing at an early age? John Whitesell: Oh yes, I started at 10 or 15 years old, I started. Richard Anderson: How did you get into that? John Whitesell: I just got an instrument and started learning, playing. Richard Anderson: Were there other people that you knew who played? John Whitesell: Yes, my daddy played, he played the violin. Richard Anderson: So you sort of had a family, a tradition of playing music? John Whitesell: Right. Richard Anderson: And would other members of the family play music? I mean I know your son [John Miley Whitesell] plays. Did all of them play musical instruments? John Whitesell: No, not really, they didn’t follow. My sister [Marjorie Ann Whitesell Chittum] played piano. Richard Anderson: Did you play at church? John Whitesell: Oh yes, that’s where we did most of our gospel things were in churches or at schools. Richard Anderson: So any other activities that you’ve been involved in like that, any other things that you really liked to do? John Whitesell: Yes, I managed a baseball team for Brownsburg here at one time. Richard Anderson: Where did they play? John Whitesell: They played in the county league club, Lexington. Richard Anderson: I mean where was the ball field? John Whitesell: Well we played in Bustleburg and we played at Lexington schools or just wherever they had a field that they wanted to play [such as at Walkers Creek]. Richard Anderson: The home field was at Bustleburg? John Whitesell: Yes, Bustleburg was the home field. Richard Anderson: And you were the manager of the team? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: How long did you do that? John Whitesell: Oh a few years. Richard Anderson: Did you like doing that? John Whitesell: Yes. It was on Saturdays a lot of times and then it got to be a bit too much. My wife [Virginia] was trying to run the store and I was telling her to come to the ball game and she had too much to do and then we just had to cut it out. Richard Anderson: These were school aged children that were involved right? John Whitesell: No, we got to where we had adult players. Richard Anderson: So was there more than one team? John Whitesell: Oh yes, it was a county league. Richard Anderson: No I mean more than one age group team, the Brownsburg did they have different age group teams? John Whitesell: No we just had the one team. Richard Anderson: Any other activities like that, anything else that you recall that you have been involved in? John Whitesell: It’s hard for me to know all the different things that have gone on. I belonged to the Fire Department and the First Aid at Fairfield for a while, and I was most too far away for that to get to like First Aid and everything. Richard Anderson: But you did do that for a while? John Whitesell: I did do that for a while, it did get so, you know, inconvenient that it was just hard to do. Richard Anderson: Do you have any stories, humorous or otherwise, that you have heard or were involved in during the time you were in Brownsburg? John Whitesell: Oh I’m sure there was a lot of them but they’ve slipped my memory now, a lot of them for a good cause probably. Richard Anderson: How about any family history or events, names of any relatives who lived in the Brownsburg area prior to your generation, early settlers of the area, related, Revolutionary War, Civil War ancestors, anything else regarding the family? How long has your family lived in Rockbridge County, I mean does it go back quite a ways? John Whitesell: It goes back quite a ways, I was born here. Richard Anderson: Before your grandfather, was it your great grandfather, where did he live if you know, did he live in the Brownsburg area? John Whitesell: Well my great grandfather -- one of my great grandfathers didn’t live very long, he died very young and they lived all round the area. Richard Anderson: So you have a connection to the Miley family right? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Is that the photographer from the Civil War era? John Whitesell: Yes, I think he was into photography then. Richard Anderson: Did you have any knowledge of any of those folks, did you hear about them? John Whitesell: They were around Lexington and Lexington at one time was hard to reach for me but they were mostly around Lexington. Richard Anderson: So have you heard of any other Whitesell family members either from this area or Rockbridge generally, even Augusta? John Whitesell: No, I don’t think so. Richard Anderson: Are there any other topics or subjects you would like to tell us about your life? John Whitesell: Well it’s been a very good life. I think. I’ve enjoyed it and of course when you’re coming up with things like I guess you leave out a lot of things that you think about later that you should have said something about but I don’t think of very much right now. Richard Anderson: Well feel free to let us know and we can always add to this, so if there’s anything that you feel important enough to include, we’ll quite happy to add it to it. John Whitesell: I’ve been connected with a lot of things, I’ve been connected with the schools, I ran the school bus, had a school bus for several years and taught at the Brownsburg school up here. Richard Anderson: What area of the county did you have to pick children up from? John Whitesell: Just around here, I mean from Rockbridge Baths and the side roads back through here, back through the country, back through Pisgah and all out through there and you bought those school children in here to school and then took them back in the afternoon [to] Rockbridge Baths. Richard Anderson: When were you doing that, when you were still operating the store? John Whitesell: Yes, that was all in the same time, all in the same time, with Virginia to take care of the store while I was out doing these other things. Richard Anderson: So you had a multi faceted career? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: School busses and other activities you were involved in you were doing a lot of different things at the same time. John Whitesell: Well I really had to do that to survive. None of the things were big enough [to survive] on their own, you had to do several. Richard Anderson: You had to do multiple things. John Whitesell: Multiple things just to survive. Richard Anderson: How many children, because you had a big family right? John Whitesell: . Richard Anderson: That’s [Whitesell’s sons] John [Miley] and Richard; there were two children? John Whitesell: Yes, and there was but two in my family, me and my sister. Richard Anderson: Are there any other individuals that you think we should interview that you can think of, other relatives, friends, neighbors, others who have lived in Brownsburg? We don’t have to have the answer to that question right away. John Whitesell: I’ll keep it in my mind. Richard Anderson: If there’s anybody else that you can think of that we really should interview, we’d really like to know about them because we’re trying to interview as many people as we can who either grew up in Brownsburg or lived here for a fair number of years and have some knowledge about the history of the community. Were there any people that you were particularly friendly with that you thought highly of? John Whitesell: Oh yes, most everybody. It was just kind of a friendly community, everybody knew everybody and it was very easy to get acquainted and everybody was so close together that if anything happened well everybody knew about it in a little while. Richard Anderson: So it was a sort of a spirit of helping each other out? John Whitesell: That’s right, that’s right. Richard Anderson: Your neighbors, when you’ve been living here have included the Swopes [2671 Brownsburg Turnpike] and the Lunsfords [2651 Brownsburg Turnpike]. John Whitesell: Yes, the Swopes and the Lunsfords. Richard Anderson: And before the Lunsfords it was the Wades. John Whitesell: Wiseman, Tolerace Wiseman and his family lived here for years [2651 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: And then down the street of course the Whipples [2728 Brownsburg Turnpike] and the Pattersons. John Whitesell: The Whipples, the Pattersons. Richard Anderson: The Huffmans? John Whitesell: The Huffmans. Richard Anderson: What happened to the Huffmans? Did they move away? John Whitesell: No, they died out I think. Richard Anderson: Now we were told earlier that the house where the Pattersons live was where the doctor’s office was. John Whitesell: That’s where Ag Patterson lives, yeah [2744 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: That that house was built by the community. John Whitesell: Yes that’s true, that’s true. Richard Anderson: How did that happen, I mean did they just get together and decide they needed -- John Whitesell: Yes, they needed a doctor and they needed a house for him and everybody got together and got a house for him and that was used as a doctor’s house for several years. Richard Anderson: There was supposed to be a lady who was sort of like a nurse. John Whitesell: Yes, there was a lady who lived out here that was a nurse, a registered nurse and I’m pretty sure she was a registered nurse and she did work around here for quite a while, Miss Hines. Richard Anderson: Did she live over here? John Whitesell: She lived here, she lived [with Mrs. Morris at 2671 Brownsburg Turnpike]. Richard Anderson: And how about Asbury Methodist Church, was that here when you were growing up? John Whitesell: Oh yeah, Asbury used to be a pretty good sized congregation there but it kind of dwindled away. Richard Anderson: Well there was quite a number of black folks who lived here in Brownsburg or nearby. John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: Did they work in the area for the most part? John Whitesell: Yes, mostly. Most of them worked on farms or just worked anywhere they could get work is what it finally come down to. That got pretty hard to do because you had to get to Lexington or Staunton to work usually where they could pick up jobs and that took a lot of traveling to get to your job and that just took a lot of time. Richard Anderson: It was better to be closer to the job. John Whitesell: To be closer to the job, cut the expenses. Richard Anderson: What was it like to operate a general store in Brownsburg all those years? John Whitesell: It was a living, it was a hard to do living, you had to watch your pennies or you couldn’t do it. There wasn’t that much business here really because like I say we had five stores here at one time and five stores, you know, the people who live in Brownsburg of course people came in from outside of Brownsburg to buy, but naturally you’d lose a lot of those to town stores. They’d go to Lexington and buy their groceries if they had a lot of groceries to buy and like me and the other few merchants that had stores out here, you had to try to squeeze by on what you could get from them. Richard Anderson: You were operating a more general store, you sold hardware and gasoline and -- John Whitesell: Yes, you had to do that, you had to do that to operate. You couldn’t operate if you didn’t do that. If you just strictly had a grocery store, why you’d have a hard way to go. Richard Anderson: Well is there anything else you’d like to tell us about? John Whitesell: I can’t think of anything. Richard Anderson: Recall everything we’d like to cover but I’m sure there are other subjects that might be of interest, but if you think of anything we’ll be glad to cover it in a subsequent interview. John Whitesell: Yes, if I think of anything else I’ll get in touch. Richard Anderson: You actually played music on the radio? John Whitesell: Oh yes. Virginia Whitesell: He and his daddy and the two Potter boys, wasn’t it? John Whitesell: Yes. Virginia Whitesell: Every Saturday morning at 9 o’clock wasn’t it? John Whitesell: Yes. Richard Anderson: About every week? John Whitesell: Yes, Harrisonburg Station called up, we went down there and played on the Saturday morning program. Richard Anderson: Do you have recordings of any of that? John Whitesell: No, it’s been so long ago, I was just a child then. Virginia Whitesell: Used to have dances in the halls, you’ve played for those and there was something else I was thinking there a while ago. [Interview Ends] John Layton Whitesell Index A Asbury United Methodist Church · 40 Automobiles · 17 B Bailey, Dr. Brownsburg doctor · 28 Baseball · 34 Brownsburg Barbershop · 27 Baseball Team · 34 Black Community · 17, 40 Black School · 17 Cannery · 17 Doctor's house · 39 Doctor's Office · 28 Horse Show · 31 Post Office · 12 Ruritan Club · 31 Saturday nights · 20, 30 Social Activities · 15 Stores · 27 Brownsburg School · 6, 26 Academy Building · 7 Bus routes · 37 Plays · 30 Sports · 9, 30 C Chittum, Marjorie Ann Whitesell · 14 piano · 34 Craney, Glasgow · 6 D Depression Era · 21 Dudley, Lucian · 2 E Electricity · 23 F Farmers' Co-op · 27 Friends Lighthouse Mission Church · 4 Funeral home · 12 G Green, Dr. Brownsburg doctor · 28 H Hanna, Rev. New Providence Minister · 16 Hines, Miss Nurse · 40 Houston, Mr. Sunday School Teacher · 16 Huffman Family · 39 Huffman's Store · 27 L Lunsford Family · 39 M Miley, Matthew Civil War Photographer · 36 Miller, Raymond · 6 Morris, Mary Preacher at Friends Lighthouse Mission Church · 4 N New Providence Presbyterian Church · 15 Sunday School · 16 Newspapers · 21 P Patterson Family · 39 Patterson, Rosenell Teacher · 8 Pleasants, Laura · 6 Post Office · 12 R Radio · 20 Roads, paved · 24 Ruritan Club · 31 S Supinger's Store · 27 Swope Family · 39 T Telephone Service · 23 Timber sales · 3 Train · 19 Trimmer, Osie Principal · 8 U Undertaking business · 11 W Wade Family · 6, 39 Wade, Bud · 27 Wade, Pauline Teacher · 8 Wade, Virginia · See Whitesell, Virginia Wade Walthall, Dr. New Providence Minister · 16 Whipple Family · 39 Whitesell, John Layton Baseball Team Manager · 34 Birth · 1 Dunsmore Business College · 10 Fire Department · 35 Gospel singing group · 32 Marriage · 14 Musician · 41 Parents · 3 Postmaster · 12 School · 6 School bus driver · 29 Trailways bus driver · 29 Whitesell, Margaret Dudley · 3 Whitesell, Marjorie Ann · See Chittum, Marjorie Ann Whitesell Whitesell, Miley L. · 3 Violin · 34 Whitesell, Virginia Wade · 14 Whitesell's Grocery · 12, 41 Williams, Dr. Joe Brownsburg doctor · 28 Wiseman, Tolerace · 39 Woody, Lynn · 19 World War II · 10, 13, 22 Gasoline Rationing · 22